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The Clyde Lovellette Interview

By:  Michael D. McClellan | There is something sublimely unique about the old school athletes of yesteryear, the ones who captured the imaginations of young fans long before cloud-based streaming became all the rage.  They played the game, or they ran the race, or they climbed into the ring without the viral love that comes from trending on social media.  The money back then was good but not great, and the athletes of yesteryear usually worked other jobs just to pay the bills.

Clyde Lovellette is one such man from yesteryear.  Few know him today, but, to hoop historians and basketball aficionados, Lovellette is hardly a forgotten man.  The first player to win an NCAA championship, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA title, Lovellette’s rare triple puts him first in an exclusive club that includes all-time greats Bill Russell, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan.  Lovellette has led the nation in scoring.  He has been honored as a Helms Foundation Player of the Year, an NBA All-Star, and a Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame inductee.  He has teamed with some of the greatest names in NBA history, counting George Mikan and Bill Russell among those with whom he’s shared the championship stage.  Lovellette has been coached by legends, men simply known as “Phog” and “Red,” and he forever linked to the NBA’s first great dynasty.

Born on September 7th, 1929, Lovellette emerged from the Great Depression largely unscathed.  He grew into a gangly teenager, head-and-shoulders above his classmates at Garfield High School in Terre Haute, Indiana.  By his junior year Lovellette was 6’8″, earning All-State honors and attracting the attention of more than fifty major colleges in the process.  It was generally assumed that Lovellette would stay close to home, but, like Larry Bird decades later, Lovellette would commit to Indiana University only to find the environment too large and too intimidating for his taste.  He chose Kansas instead, thanks to the repeated overtures of head coach Forrest “Phog” Allen.

For Lovellette, Kansas turned out to be the absolute best place in the basketball universe.  Lovellette finished his sophomore season fourth in the nation in scoring, with a 21.8 points-per-game average, was named All-Big Seven, and garnered the first of three All-America honors.  He would lead the nation in scoring during a magical senior season (28.4 PPG), carrying the Jayhawks to the 1952 NCAA Championship.

“It seemed like from the first time we stepped on the court that year against Creighton, good things were going to happen,” Lovellette told the Kansas City Star in 1988.  “We had been up and down in two years, but we all still liked each other and got along.  Phog was still a ball of fire then.  It just all came together.  It was a great experience.”

Lovellette was then selected to represent the United States in the 1952 Olympic Games in Helsinki, Finland.

“Going to the Olympics and representing the United States [had] to be the biggest thrill of my entire basketball career,” Lovellette said in 1979.  “Winning the gold medal was icing on the cake.”

After a season playing AAU basketball for Phillips Petroleum, Lovellette signed a contract to play with the Minneapolis Lakers, teaming with George Mikan.  Playing behind Mikan as a rookie, Lovellette won an NBA title – the Lakers’ fourth in five seasons – becoming the first player to achieve that rare college-Olympic-NBA championship trifecta.  Had Mikan remained healthy, who knows.  Perhaps the Lakers would have strung together a series of championships to rival Bill Russell’s Boston Celtics.  Instead, Mikan retired.

Lovellette played four impressive seasons in Minneapolis, only to be dealt to the Rochester Royals.  Asked to take a pay cut at season’s end, Lovellette instead requested a trade and ended up in St. Louis, where he registered two All-Star appearances over the next four seasons.  Battling age and injury, and with Bill Russell and the Boston Celtics churning out titles on an annual basis, Lovellette began to think he might never win another NBA crown.

All of that changed when Red Auerbach picked up Lovellette for the 1962-63 season to provide experienced relief for Russell at center.  A rejuvenated Lovellette played solid basketball for Auerbach over the next two seasons, winning two championships and securing his place as one of the best centers of his generation.

Lovellette retired after the 1964 NBA Finals, decades before social media transformed the game into the globally connected spectacle it’s become today.  Clyde Lovellette is cool with that.  He still respects the game, and he doesn’t begrudge the fortunes amassed by players like LeBron or KD.  Lovellette is part of the lineage.  He has that national championship at Kansas.  He’s won Olympic gold.  He’s won championships with Mikan and Russell.  It doesn’t get much better than that.

You were born on September 7th, 1929, a month before the Black Monday stock market crash.  How was your family impacted by the Great Depression?

Dad always had a job – he was an engineer who worked on the railroad – which was one thing that our family had to be thankful about as far as the Great Depression was concerned.  We were fortunate in that we had everything that we needed.  He had a good job, and he brought home a good paycheck.  There were other families around our neighborhood and in other surrounding areas that weren’t as fortunate.  I remember that Mom tried to help as many of them as possible by giving them the things we had in excess – produce, clothing, whatever the case may be.  At that time there were a lot of homeless people – we called them hobos back then – and Mom would always give them a cold drink and a sandwich.
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You were a four-year letter winner at Garfield High School and led your team to the finals of the 1947 state tournament.

High school basketball back in those days was a lot different that it is today.  You played the game and didn’t think about going on to play in college.  Back then you thought about getting a job, usually following in your father’s footsteps – in my case, a railroad engineer – or some other occupation that didn’t require college.  And you usually stayed close to the area or the town that you grew up in, because all of your friends, family and acquaintances were there.  In my case, I could have gone on to work on the railroad – I could have started as a brakemen, or a fireman, and then moved on up become an engineer like my dad.  But he never wanted me to work on the railroad.  I think he saw my athletic potential, and thought that I could do something with it.

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You were recruited in-state, but ended up signing with Kansas.  What was that like?

You have to remember that there wasn’t a lot of television back in ’47 and ’48, and whatever we had was all just regional coverage, in black-and-white, and on a 9-inch screen.  You got very little news on basketball outside of Indiana.  And with Indiana being the hotbed of basketball, you had coverage from Bloomington, where Branch McCracken was the coach at Indiana University, and you had coverage of Johnny Wooden’s team at Indiana State.  Notre Dame had Moose Kraus.  Purdue had Ward “Piggy” Lambert.  Those were the big programs, so most of the talent coming out of high school went to one of those four schools, or to another school in Indiana – be it a Division I, II or III school – so that you could be close to home, and so that the family could come and see you play.

 

Indiana wanted you.  Like Larry Bird, you changed your mind.  What happened?

Back then you didn’t sign letters of intent, you gave a verbal commitment.  I committed to IU during my senior year, without having visited the campus, mainly because that’s where all three of my high school coaches had graduated.  Then I went down to Bloomington and visited the school, and that’s when I learned that IU had a huge campus with a very large student body population.  Honestly, I was a little bit intimidated by it all.

 

When did Kansas enter the picture?

An assistant coach from Kansas had visited with me prior to my trip to Bloomington, so I knew that KU wanted me.  I just thought that that was a far piece to travel at the time, and I didn’t really give it a lot of serious thought.  I fully intended to honor my commitment to IU, but Kansas didn’t give up.

 

When did you meet Phog Allen?

Phog was going to make a speech in St. Louis, and I agreed to meet him there to discuss what his school had to offer.  I chickened out, and sent my brother-in-law to meet with Phog and tell him that I was going to Indiana, and that there was no use in coming to Terra Haute to try and convince me to change my mind.  Phog came anyway [laughs].  We had a long talk, and he made the one statement that no other coach had ever made – he said that if I came to KU and played the pivot, then the team would be good enough to win a national championship.

He also predicted that we would go to the Olympics together, and that we would win a gold medal in Helsinki, Finland.  That had a huge impact on me.  Being from Indiana, with very little television, you just didn’t get much in the way of Olympic coverage.  You didn’t hear a lot about basketball and some of the other sports; what you heard about was track, because back then that was the big thing in the Olympics.  That was what you saw on TV, or heard on the radio, or read about in the newspaper.  Jesse Owens was a national sensation – his exploits made you dream about representing your country.  So when Phog talked about the Olympics, that was the thing that made me the most excited.  I changed my mind because of that talk, and I spent three years playing ball at KU – and we did the things that he said that we were going to do:  We won the national championship, and we won the gold medal in Helsinki, Finland.

 

Your transition from high school to college was nothing short of incredible – you finished your first collegiate basketball season by leading the Big Seven in scoring, and by being honored as an All-American.  Did you expect success to come so quickly?

You have to remember that the first year was my freshman year, and back then freshmen couldn’t play varsity sports.  But that first year was really my springboard, because we played against other freshmen at the Big Seven schools, as well as against our own varsity on a nightly basis.  It made us realize that we weren’t playing high school competition anymore, and that we were going to be playing against young men who were big, strong and athletic.  We worked very hard during our freshman year, and then we stayed there during the summer and worked on various skills that would help us when we played varsity ball the following fall.  So once we took to the court during our sophomore year, we felt that we were ready to play college basketball.

 

You earned All-Big Seven and All-America honors as a sophomore and a junior.  What tactics did opposing coaches employ in an effort to slow you down?

There were a lot of double-teams, and a lot of sagging off.  They also tried to push me out from my normal shooting range – keeping me away from the basket was a big strategy on both ends of the court, actually.  Putting a guy in front of me, and a guy behind me, that was the most common defense that I had to deal with.  But if you’ve got a good ball club, and they’re working with you, and I’m working with them, then it gets to the place where a defense can do that for a little bit – but pretty soon it’s going to break down and we’re going to run our offense.  They can stymie you for awhile.  But if you’ve good a good nucleus of players who can shoot from outside and drive to the basket –and good passers – then the cream will come to the top, and that’s what we had.  We had a great bunch of guys that just loved to play basketball and loved to win.  If we won, great, and if we lost, then we’d go back to the practice court, figure out what we’d done wrong and correct it for the next game.

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Everything came together for you as a senior – you led the nation in scoring, and you led the Jayhawks to the 1952 NCAA Championship.  You were All-Big Seven, All-America, and the Helms Foundation NCAA Player of the Year.  Take me back to that senior season.

Fortunately, we had a great nucleus of ball players. We had a range of guys that could play the game, and bring their own unique skills to the team – whether it was passing, rebounding, defense, or scoring.  We started off winning , and kept winning until we hit a snag and lost two games in a row.  Phog was upset.  We worked very hard in practice after that second loss, because he knew – and we knew – that we couldn’t lose any more or we weren’t going to win the Big Seven and have a chance to win the national championship.  Well, we didn’t lose any other games after that.  Every game we played, we played the game hard and we played it to have fun…and we played it to the best of our ability – both individually, and as a team.  I can’t speak for the other guys on the team – Glenn Hart, Robert Kenney, the Kelley brothers and the rest – but I think we had a mindset that we were going to go out and play hard every game, do the best that we could, and do what Phog wanted us to do.  And, as it turned out, we won the Big Seven and went on to become national champions.

 

You scored 141 points on your way to earning tournament MVP honors.  How were you able to dominate the best teams in the nation?

I don’t know if you can call it providence, but we were determined to fulfill the prophecy that Phog had given to us as freshmen.  We came together, and the team as a whole was unstoppable.  And I think I just came to the point in my career where I understood what was expected of me if we were going to win the national championship.  I knew that I needed to raise the level of my game.  It had to be better than what I’d produced during the regular season, although I had a great regular season my senior year.  It had to be better because one loss in a tournament means that your season is over – and, in the case of the seniors, that meant the end of a college career.

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Were you the Big Man on Campus after winning that championship?

In high school I was 6′-8″ and head-and-shoulders above everybody else.  It got to the point that I became very shy.  I didn’t go out very much.  I didn’t want to be looked at or stared at.  But by my junior and senior years I had blossomed as an athlete, becoming an All-State basketball player and gaining recognition for what I could do on the court.  I started dating, and I found a good core of friends to bum around with together – I was very careful in that regard, because sometimes I think my popularity as a basketball player made me popular with a lot of the guys and girls at school.  I never let them get to the point to where they were using me.  I kept my distance from the ones who wanted to be associated with me simply so that they could say ‘Look who I know’.

When I first got into college it was a completely different atmosphere.  In college they don’t know who you are and they don’t really care.  They’re interested in getting an education.  But once I started playing basketball I found myself in the same situation, with people wanting to latch onto me because I was a high-profile athlete.  They were more interested in who I was, and it made them look good to be seen with someone who was doing well in that regard.  So even though I was more of an extrovert in college, I still chose my friends very carefully.  I wanted people to associate themselves with me because of who I was, and not what I did as an athlete.  And when we went out, we didn’t talk about basketball.  We didn’t talk about the big game the team had just played, or the big game that was coming up.  We talked about other things – what was going on in the State of Kansas, or what was going on in the world.

It was like that in other parts of the country as well – pretty much wherever we played.  There were always people – hangers-on, I called them – who loved to come around the locker room, get an autograph and hang out with you for a little bit.  And then other people would see them hanging around the athletes, and it would give them a bloated ego.  So we as players just had to be careful about who we associated with.

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Following college, the Olympics beckoned.  Where does this rank in terms of your athletic achievements?

I think the Olympics ranks at the top, because it was so much bigger than anything else I’d ever accomplished as an athlete.  I think that that’s only natural, because if you win an award for Kansas, playing Kansas basketball, you win it for two groups of people other than yourself – you win it for Kansas University, and you win it for the State of Kansas.  So when I was named All-American, the award meant something to me, Phog, KU and the people in Kansas who I represented.  But when I won a gold medal, it was much higher honor because I was representing the United States in the Olympics.  No longer was I representing a single state.  I was representing millions of Americans with my behavior, my ability, and my performance on the basketball court.  That meant a whole lot to me.  Much more than just representing the state and the university.  There were only five-hundred athletes in the world who were selected to compete in the Olympics.  So that in itself was a great honor.  And to be able to win a gold medal is almost beyond words, because I won it first for the American people, then the State of Kansas, then Kansas University, then Phog, and finally myself.  That’s the order in which it mattered to me.  If you watch the Olympics today, most of the athletes are concerned only with themselves – not all of them, of course, but the vast majority.  And with basketball you have pro players on the roster.  When I played it was all amateur athletes, and I think that it meant more because of that.  So you find that most of the athletes today just go to the Games with the USA logo on their back.  They don’t place representing their country at the top of their priority list.

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After the Olympics, you spent a year playing amateur basketball, winning the National AAU title with Phillips Petroleum (1953).  Please take me back to this period on your life.

After graduation, a lot of ballplayers went on to play in the Industrial League, which was comprised of approximately twenty-eight teams located all over the country.  And the teams represented big corporations in various industries such as banking and petroleum.  There were teams sponsored by Phillips, Goodyear, Caterpillar, and so forth.  Players would graduate from college and go to work for these companies – and by work, I mean taking real, nine-to-five jobs that paid a salary and included benefits such as vacation and sick leave – and, in the process, get a jump on a business career.

When I went to interview with Phillips, I learned that eighty percent of the ballplayers were still on the payroll – and this was from the inception of the Industrial League.  So I was impressed by that, and I decided to go to work for Phillips.  I was in chemical sales.  I was behind a desk, which I didn’t like much, but every once in awhile I would get out.  But during basketball season I’d get to practice every day, and then I’d get to travel with the team to the games.  Phillips had a private plane for the team, and we traveled first class; in many respects, I think it was much better than when I started playing in the pros.  In the pros we had eight teams, four in the East and four in the West, and the travel and accommodations weren’t as good as what we had with Phillips.

I remember making a remark that I was happy to be playing with Phillips in the amateurs, and that I never really considered going pro.  Shortly after that, I read a comment by “Easy” Ed Macauley, which quoted him as saying that the amateurs was the best place for me.  He told the reporter that he didn’t think that I could make it in the NBA.  He later said that he didn’t make the comment, and that it was written out of context, but I used that as a source of tremendous motivation.  I took that as a challenge.  I played one year with Phillips and then told the company president that I wanted to try the NBA.  He said that he was sorry to see me go, but he understood and wished me luck. The next year I was playing center with the Minneapolis Lakers, behind the great George Mikan.

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Please tell me a little about Mr. Mikan, and also about the experience of winning the NBA championship as a rookie with Lakers.

You don’t have enough time for me to tell you about Mikan [laughs].  I didn’t follow the pros at that time – I didn’t know too many players in the pros, so when I signed the contract to go to Minneapolis and they told me about George Mikan…well, I had to read about George Mikan to find out what everyone was talking about.  He was the biggest guy in the NBA, an All-Star, the leading scorer and rebounder…everything that I read about him seemed larger than life.  And then meeting him at that first practice was an awesome sight, because George was a full inch taller than me and outweighed me by at least twenty-five pounds.  He had square shoulders, and he was very powerful – he was all man.

I was twenty-one at the time, and George was in his thirties – he had already been in the league a number of years, because he retired the year after I got there.  He was a truly dominating player.  I don’t mean this in a bad way, but George was also a mean, aggressive ballplayer.  When he got the ball he wanted to put the ball in the hole, and you’d better be out of the way – if not, he’d want to take you, the ball and everything else and try very hard to put it all in the basket [laughs].  I learned from George very early on that if I was going to stay in the league any length of time – and I planned on staying in the pros a number of years, and not getting booted out as a rookie and having nothing to do – then playing the physical part of the game was a must.  George also taught me that if I was going to be squeamish, then I wasn’t going to make it in the league.  I learned very quickly that I had to take it, that I had to dish it out, and that I had to be prepared to take it again, because they were going to come right back at me and try to do the very same thing.  So I learned a lot from George that first year.  I played behind him.  I played some when he was injured.  We got in together in a dual post attack.  And we had a great supporting cast – we had Vern Mikkelson on one side, we had Jim Pollard on the other.  We had Slater Martin and Whitey Skoog, and George in the middle.  We had All-Americans sitting on the bench.  It was just a great, great experience to be a part of that, and to win an NBA title that first year.

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You finished in the NBA’s top 10 in scoring, rebounding, and field-goal percentage in your first season as a starter.  A year later you ranked fourth in the NBA in scoring (22.1 PPG), third in rebounds (14.0 RPG), and sixth in field-goal percentage (434 percent).  Were you surprised at how quickly you became one of the leagues’ most dominant players?

Yeah, because when I first came into the league George was the biggest player in the NBA.  But by my second season they started getting bigger players in the league – there was suddenly a bunch of guys 6’10” and 6’11”, so I had to adapt to playing inside and outside.  I had to learn more about team play, because I had to really work the ball to score.  I had to be patient, and trust that I’d get the ball back if I gave it up.  And I worked hard in the off-season to get better.  Coming out of college, I thought that everything was going to be as easy as it was for me at Kansas.  I found out very quickly that that wasn’t the case.  Every NBA roster was stocked with guys who had been All-Conference, or All-American. They were the top players at their schools.  They might not have been the leading scorers in the nation, but they were pretty close.  So I had to adjust.  I learned that you just can’t put your sneakers out on the court and not be able to fill them.  I had to be ready to play.

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The Minneapolis Lakers and the Boston Celtics conducted annual preseason barnstorming tours throughout New England, often playing up to 17 games in twenty-one days.  What memories to you have of these exhibitions, and what was your first impression of the Celtics’ brash young coach, Arnold “Red” Auerbach?

When you play that many games on that many nights, and you ride the bus with the other team…well, the first night and the first game is pretty nice.  Everybody got along and everyone sat with one another and talked about a lot of things.  And no one was really interested in whether you won or lost.  But all of that changed after the second or third game that you played.  Tempers got raw.  Sometimes you wouldn’t be sitting with a Boston Celtic.  You’d be sitting with a Minneapolis Laker.  Or you’d be sitting on one side of the bus and they’d be sitting on the other.  And sometimes it got kind of hairy [laughs].  But overall, it was a good experience.  You got your training, you got your workout, you got in shape…all of those things…but sometimes it got a little tight with the players you were competing against.  It might be someone you had just finished hitting in a game, or someone you might have outscored, or someone that you fouled hard – and then you had to get on the bus and sit near him…or even right beside him.  Of course they don’t do that now, but it was an experience that every ballplayer should go through once.

 

After the 1957 NBA Playoffs, you were dealt to the Rochester.  Please tell me about your time with the Royals.

Rochester at one time was a great franchise.  When they moved to Cincinnati, I guess [Royals owner] Les Harrison got some tax breaks or something, or maybe a break on the rent.  I’m not really sure why Harrison decided to move, but I thought he was a nice guy, and we had some good talent the year that I was there.  Jack Twyman was there, and Maurice Stokes.  Stokes got sick the year that I got there.  He would have been a superstar in the NBA.  We had George King and myself.  We had some good ballplayers, but I wasn’t happy in Cincinnati.  So it was sort of a stop-off place.  I wanted to go straight from Minneapolis to St. Louis, because Ben Kerner had drafted me to come to Milwaukee and I then didn’t go there.  I think he’d been a little bit disappointed that I didn’t end up with him in the first place, because I would have played in Milwaukee and probably would have been part of the move to St. Louis.

It was contract time, and Harrison met with me and said that he was going to cut salaries.  I said ‘No thanks’, and asked to be traded.  I had no idea where I was going, but I was happy to end up in St. Louis.  Bob Pettit was there, and Cliff Hagan.  Slater Martin came out of Minneapolis and he was there.  Jack Mcmahon.  Sihugo Green.  So there was a good nucleus of ballplayers, and they had just won the championship the year before.  I thought I could fit right in.  Charlie Share was the center.  I had to beat him out – we split time the first half of my first season in St. Louis, and then he was traded to Minneapolis.

But back to your question – Cincinnati was just a blur.  If I’d have stayed there long enough I would have gotten to play with Oscar Robertson.  Who knows, maybe we would have won a championship.

 

In St. Louis, you played with former Celtic great “Easy” Ed Macauley.

“Easy” was a very good ballplayer when he played for the Boston Celtics.  I ran into him a lot of times when I was with Minneapolis and Cincinnati.  We had great battles.  Then he went to St. Louis, where he played and became the team’s head coach.  But you have to remember that when I got to St. Louis, “Easy” was in the twilight of his career.  He was a fine man.

The two players that I like to talk about the most are Pettit and Hagan.  When I played with Cliff and Bob, it was like a trio made in heaven.  I don’t know what it was.  The three of us just jelled together, we had our own roles to play, and we knew how to move in each other’s space on the court.  I could be inside, I could go outside.  I developed the one-handed outside shot – it would be a three-pointer today.  Cliff could move inside.  We could switch the defense – if we had a big guy on me, like Wilt Chamberlain, I could move him out and then Pettit and Hagan could have free reign inside.  For the four years that I played as a starter for St. Louis, we were the top scoring frontline in the NBA.  So we had a really good nucleus until I got hurt.  I tore my Achilles tendon, and that’s when Boston picked me up for the final two years.

 

The Hawks reached the NBA Finals a year later, falling to the Boston Celtics in an exciting seven game series.  What was it like to compete against Bill Russell?

I’ve always said that if I were going to start an NBA franchise, I’d want to have a Bill Russell.  Then I would fill in around him.  I played against Russell for many years when I was with Minneapolis and St. Louis.  He was by far the most difficult player I’d ever played against, because he was so quick.  Defensively, he was the best player in NBA history.  Offensively, he wasn’t the most overpowering.  He could score, but his main prowess was rebounding, kicking the ball out, and running the court.  To me, Russell is the greatest ever.  They talk about Chamberlain, and they talk about Russell, and I really believe that Russell had the heart to be a champion.  Not to disparage Chamberlain, but he just didn’t have the same kind of heart.  You could see the spurt every once in awhile.  He would have that determination and killer instinct, but he just didn’t have it consistently.  He could always score, but guys could score on him as well.  The Celtics were the Celtics, but they became champions when they got Russell.

 

Just how good were the Celtics in this series?

People talk about the coaching ability of Red Auerbach, but I think Red Auerbach was a great psychologist because he kept the egos on that team to where he could manage them, and to where the players could play to the best of their ability.  To me, the Celtics weren’t a group of individuals.  They were a collection of individual stars that could play together for a common goal – winning championships.  You had All-Stars in five areas – Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, Tom Heinsohn, and either of the Jones Boys [Sam or KC].  So when the team took the court you could have five All-Stars playing at the same time; and yet, when they played together they weren’t playing as five individual All-Stars.  They worked together as a unit, and nobody on that team cared about getting the most points, or the most assists, or whatever the case may have been.  If a Sam Jones stepped up and had a big night, the other four players were happy to do the other things to help the team win.  There wasn’t a jealous bone on the floor.  They were truly a family, a group of guys that really enjoyed one another.

When I joined the team, I had to be invited into the family.  I wasn’t brought in immediately.  They had to find out what kind of individual that I was, and how I could get along with the other players on the team – or couldn’t get along, if that happened to be the case.  They knew that I’d been an All-Star prior to coming to Boston, but that really didn’t matter to them.  They were looking for how well I fit into the family framework that was in place.  They didn’t want anybody in there that was going to stir the pot, so to speak.

 

Just when it looked like your career might be over, Red Auerbach and the Boston Celtics came calling.  What made Auerbach such a great coach, and how did he compare to Phog Allen?

Like Red, Phog was a great psychologist.  He had a great assistant coach in Dick Harp, who helped take care of the X’s and O’s.  But Phog kept us all in line.  If you got out of line, or got to thinking that you were bigger than you really were, then Phog would bring you back down.  Red was the same way.  Now as far as X’s and O’s, I think Red had a group of guys who wanted to play and wanted to win, and he gave them the tools as far as plays, to accomplish that feat.  And then he let the guys go out and play.  Red let Cousy and Bill go out and play ball – he knew what they could do.  He just got his point across in practices, pointing out mechanics and technique, and come game time he trusted that his players would execute on both ends of the court.  And then he kept them together psychologically.  I think that Phog was the same way – in many respects they were very similar in their approach to the game…of course, Phog didn’t smoke cigars – but Red sure did [laughs].

 

You began your NBA career by winning a championship as a backup to the great George Mikan, and finished it by winning two as a backup to the incomparable Bill Russell.  What was it like to play with Russell, and what was it like to win those titles in Boston?

Well, it was definitely better playing with him than against him [laughs].  Once you got to know him, Bill was a great guy.  Just to sit on the bench and watch him play, it didn’t seem as though he ever got older.  It seemed like he could go on and on forever, even though age catches up with everybody.  But there were nights when he’d play the whole game – forty-eight minutes – and you could only sit back and marvel and how he could do that after playing in the league for ten-plus years.  Of course, it was my job to be his backup, so there were nights when I didn’t step foot on the floor.

Every once in awhile I’d get to go in and play.  I remember one time, Bill got poked in the eye and had to come out.  I went in against Walt Bellamy and had one heck of a night.  I scored over twenty points that night.  So every once in a while I could still have spurts [laughs].  But I was there in the twilight of my career, enjoying playing when I did, and enjoying watching guys like John Havlicek play ball.  He was rookie during my first year with the team.  He was really something special.  And, as you’ve mentioned, I was able to win a couple of championships before I retired from basketball.  It was really special to be a part of the Boston Celtics.

 

On May 3, 1988 you received basketball’s highest honor – enshrinement in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.  Please take me back to that special day.

Anytime you get honored by your peers, it has to be considered a great honor.  You have to be voted in – I think there are eighteen people on the panel who have to endorse you, so it’s very special to be selected.  You look at the players in there – guys like George Mikan, and even guys farther back than that…guys like Bob Kurland, who I’d heard about but had never seen play – and you realize how great a thrill it is to be selected.  It’s something that I’ll cherish for the rest of my life.

 

You were the first player to play on an NCAA, Olympic and NBA championship team – a feat that has been duplicated only three times since.  What does this mean to you?

Either I was awfully lucky, or the teams that I played on – and I give credit to my teammates for this distinction – were awfully talented.  Because without the other players you can’t win.  The kids that I played with at Kansas and in the pros, and in the Olympics…they were the reason that I won at those levels.  I just wish that I could have won the state championship in 1947, because then I would have had a title at all levels.  We came ten points shy [laughs].

 

Final Question:  You’ve achieved great success in your life.  If you could offer one piece of advice on life to others, what would that be?

In 1980, I was fifty years old.  I’d played a lot of ball, and I’d won a lot of awards, and I was generally looked upon as a great success in the world of athletics, but I wasn’t fulfilled.  Everything changed that year, because I gave my life to Jesus Christ.  Athletes today need to realize that all the money that they make, all the accolades that they receive…those things will fade.  Their popularity will fade.  My advice is to look for something permanent, and for something that is going to be eternal.  Jesus Christ is the answer.

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The Rick Robey Interview

By: Michael D. McClellan | He is equal parts Kentucky royalty and NBA rank-and-file, a former blue collar big man who played for two of the most storied basketball traditions the game has ever known. How many players can say they’ve won a national championship playing for the Kentucky Wildcats, and then gone on to win an NBA crown with the Boston Celtics?

Rick Robey can.

He can also say that he’s won a state high school title at Brother Martin in Louisiana, and added an NIT championship to his Kentucky haul, effectively hitting for the cycle in terms of bringing home the hardware. And Robey is a legend in the Bluegrass State for his remarkable collegiate career, which culminated with that national championship and with him being named a consensus NCAA All-American Second Team selection (1978).

Growing up, Robey’s family moved frequently, with stops in Florida, Tennessee and Alaska before settling in New Orleans. By then he was making a name for himself on the basketball court, and being recruited by most of the top programs in the country. He narrowed his choices to Notre Dame and Kentucky, eventually settling on the Wildcats.

Prior to Robey’s arrival, the UK basketball program was in the midst of an identity crisis.  Legendary coach Adolph Rupp had retired following the 1972 season, and Joe B. Hall, who had won a championship playing for Rupp in 1949, was tasked with trying to win the school’s first title since 1958. Hall guided Kentucky to an SEC championship and an Elite Eight finish in his first season, but the team regressed during the 1973-74 campaign, finishing with a 13-13 record and failing to qualify for the tournament. The Wildcats’ rabid fan base was soon calling for Hall’s firing.

Robey’s arrival in Lexington proved to be a turning point for Hall and the Kentucky basketball program.  With Robey starting as a freshman, the Wildcats quickly recaptured the SEC championship, qualifying for the NCAA Tournament and stunning heavily favored and previously undefeated Indiana 92-90 in a regional final. Back in the Final Four, Kentucky would defeat Syracuse before falling to UCLA in John Wooden’s last game as head coach.

An NIT title would come the following season, with Robey missing half of the games due to a knee injury.  Kentucky would reach the Elite Eight during Robey’s junior year, setting up a storybook ending to his final season, which would end with Kentucky claiming its first national championship in 20 years.  Robey’s 20-point (on 8-of-11 shooting), 11-rebound performance was key to the Wildcats’ title clincher against Duke, and helped elevate his stock ahead of the 978 NBA Draft.  The Indiana Pacers, in search of a big man, selected Robey with the third overall pick in the 1978 NBA Draft. Then, 43 games into his first NBA season, Robey suddenly found himself traded to the Boston Celtics.

“It was a shock,” Robey says, “because I’d just been drafted by the Pacers, and it seemed as if they wanted me to be a part of their rebuilding plans.  They didn’t wait to see how things were going to develop, but it worked out for me because the Celtics were about to take off.”

Robey’s first Celtics team finished with a 29-53 record, but the once-proud franchise’s fortunes would change a season later, thanks to the arrival of Larry Bird. With Bird leading the way, Boston finished with a 61-21 regular-season record before falling to the Philadelphia 76ers in the 1980 Eastern Conference Finals. Robey contributed 11.5 points and 6.5 rebounds and, just like that, the Boston Celtics were relevant again.

A year later Robert Parish and Kevin McHale were added to the mix, launching the Big Three Era in Boston. Robey’s numbers dropped to 9.0 points and 4.8 rebounds with the arrival of Parish and McHale, but he was still a valuable member of the rotation. Boston would avenge the previous year’s playoff loss to the Sixers, rebounding from a 3-1 series deficit to beat Philly and reach the NBA Finals.  Boston then dispatched the Houston Rockets, 4-2, to win the teams 14th NBA Championship.  Just like that, Robey was on top of the basketball world once again.

“It was a dream come true,” Robey says, reflecting on that playoff run. “That series against the Sixers was so intense, and not many people thought we could climb out of that hole to beat them. But we did, and at that point we knew we were good enough to win the championship.”

Robey’s role in the Boston rotation would continue to decline over the next two seasons, as the Celtics continued to search for the right pieces to win another title. And then, during the summer of ’83, Auerbach traded Robey to Phoenix for disgruntled guard Dennis Johnson. With Johnson providing lock-down defense on the perimeter, Boston would go on to reach four consecutive NBA Finals, winning two of them (1984 and 1986).  Robey would play parts of three seasons for the Suns, retiring in 1986, but his NBA career remains most closely-associated with the Celtics. And with DJ helping deliver those two titles, Robey indirectly played a large part in the team’s mid-80s success.

Call it addition by subtraction, if you will.  Whatever the case, Robey will always be a known as a UK Wildcat and a Boston Celtic, and he’ll always be remembered for having played a hand in the resurgence of these storied basketball traditions.

You were born in Coral Gables, Florida and went to high school in Louisiana. Please tell me a little about your childhood – the sports you liked to play, the schools you went to, and the memories that stand out.

My dad worked for the federal government, so we moved around quite a bit. We lived in three different places in Florida, and then we lived in Memphis, Tennessee. From the time I was seven years old until I was about ten, we lived in Kodiak, Alaska. Kodiak is the place where I really learned to like basketball. It was so cold there, so there wasn’t a whole lot to do. We lived on a naval base, so I played a lot at the gym against different military people and people that were older.

My mother came down with cancer while we were up there and passed away at a young age. She died at thirty-six. We really moved to New Orleans because of Ochsner Clinic, which was one of the top cancer clinics in the country at that time. After her passing we ended up staying put, which was from my sixth grade year all the way through high school graduation. My dad ended up being the head of naval intelligence for that region.

 

You went to Brother Martin High School in New Orleans. What memories stand out about your high-school career?

Brother Martin High School is a private school. I was in the public school system in junior high, at Edna Karr Junior High, and in New Orleans they tend to recruit the good players into the private schools. So I ended up going to Brother Martin. In fact, I had to sit out a year due to the transfer, so I got to play my junior and senior years there.  Ironically, during my sit-out year, Brother Martin ended up playing against Robert Parish and his team. We ended up beating Robert for the state championship. Robert was Player of the Year in Louisiana that year. And then two years later we ended winning the state championship, and I ended up being the Louisiana Player of the Year that year.  It’s a small world – Robert and I ended up playing together with the Celtics, and his high school played against my high school for the championship, and we were both recognized as the best players in the same state. He and I also played together at the Pan American Games in Mexico City, so those are some of the things that tie us together.

 

Let’s talk Kentucky basketball. What were your first three years at Kentucky like?

I was recruited by just about everybody, but I had pretty much narrowed it down to Kentucky and Notre Dame and ended up going to Kentucky. I had four great years there. I started as a freshman and played with four seniors – Kevin Grevey, Bob Guyette, Mike Flynn and Jimmy Conner. We ended up making it the finals, losing to UCLA in John Wooden’s last game as head coach.  My sophomore year was exciting because we won the NIT Championship, but that was also the year I had a knee injury and ended up missing half of the season due to that. So it was also a little bit frustrating in that respect.  My junior year we advanced to the Eastern Regionals, losing to North Carolina. That was back when there wasn’t a shot clock, and they got the lead and were able to run the four-corner offense. They hit 35-of-36 free throws in that game, and ended up beating us, so that was disappointing. But we knew we had a lot of potential coming back the next season.

 

Kentucky won its fifth national championship during your senior season, defeating Duke 94-88.  What was it like going against guys like Mike Gminksi and Jim Spanarkal on the game’s biggest stage?

We were able to get it done, so that was a huge thrill. We had Jack Givens, who was an outstanding player and was recognized as such that season – he was the Final Four Most Outstanding Player, the Helms National Player of the Year, and just a tremendous college basketball player. We also had Kyle Macy, Mike Phillips, and from to to bottom it was a truly great group of guys. That last game was an intense match-up because Duke had such a great team, with guys like Gminski, Spanarkal and Gene Banks. So winning meant everything to us – to be able to win a championship for the Kentucky fans was something special that I’ll never forget.

 

You were the 3rd overall pick in the 1978 NBA Draft.

I was selected by the Indiana Pacers with the third pick in that draft. They needed size and liked how I’d played during my senior season and in the tournament. It was an interesting draft, because Boston used the seventh overall pick on Larry Bird, even though they knew they had to wait a year to get him, and that they might not get him at all.

 

Midway through the 1978-79 season you were traded to the Boston Celtics. How did you find out, and what were your thoughts of joining such a tradition-rich franchise?

It was funny, because about a month-and-a-half into the season we played a game against the Celtics. I went up against Dave Cowens in that game, who was the player-coach at the time. After the game Dave told me that the Celtics were going to try their best to make a trade for me. He said it would be at some point in the next month to month-and-a-half. And by golly, come January I got the call that I’d just been traded to the Celtics.  It was exciting.  I knew they’d already drafted Larry Bird as a junior-eligible player at the time.  Then Larry shows up, and he’s even better than advertised.  And the next year they were able to get Robert Parish and Kevin McHale, and it was history from then on.

 

That 78-79 Celtics team endured an ownership change and a coaching change and finished with only 29 wins. Please tell me a little about that chaotic first season in Boston.

You could tell they were getting ready to make some major changes on that team. They had Curtis Rowe, Bob McAdoo and ‘Bad News’ Marvin Barnes, and for whatever reason things just weren’t working out. They still had Jo Jo White, a great guard who was in the latter part of his career. So there were a lot of rumors floating around that they were going to make some major moves. But that season was definitely a tough season for us.

 

As you’ve mentioned, everything changed the next season with the arrival of Larry Bird.

I think once they were able to get Bird signed, and then put the McHale-Parish deal together for Joe Barry Carroll, things really started to roll. Bird was the trigger point for the turnaround, no question about it, but having those other guys meant a lot, too. And don’t forget, Red Auerbach was also great at making moves for the perfect role players, guys like Danny Ainge and Gerald Henderson and M.L. Carr and Cedric Maxwell. Just a great group of guys and great players.

 

What was it like to play for a coach as demanding as Bill Fitch?

I think the guys that played a lot of minutes were more aggravated with him than I was. He was a guy who loved to practice a lot and loved to watch a lot of film. I think it was harder on the guys that were playing 30-40 minutes a game, because his harder practices, combined with watching a whole lot of film, wore on them after a while. For me, the harder practices really helped because I wasn’t getting as many minutes as the other guys. The only time I’d see that many minutes was if Robert ended up getting into foul trouble, of if someone got injured or something like that. But Bill was a fine coach and it worked out well in the end. You can’t argue with success, and Bill was able to win a world championship.

 

The arrival of McHale and Parish was huge.

Robert and Kevin were outstanding players and even better people. They were both funny, too. The public didn’t really see that side of Robert, but in the locker room he was one of the funniest guys on the team, always joking around. Kevin was just an unbelievable player who could do it all underneath the basket. To pull off that trade with Golden State, that really shows you the genius of Red Auerbach.

 

Take me back to the ’81 Eastern Conference Finals against Philly.

I don’t recall how many teams had come back from a 3-1 deficit to win a series at that time, but I know that there hadn’t been many. I remember every game coming down to the wire, and I remember Bird having a great series. But the whole team played well together. And I think that was the stepping stone we needed to not only win the title that year, but to prove that we could break through and compete for the championship every year.

 

The Celtics won their 14th NBA Championship that year, beating Moses Malone and the Houston Rockets. Take me back to that series.

After we got past the Sixers we felt pretty good about our chances against Houston in the Finals. The Rockets had Moses Malone and had gotten past the Lakers the series before that, and everyone had the Lakers picked to reach the Finals and probably win it all. They had Malone, Robert Reid, Calvin Murphy, Rudy Tomjanovich, Mike Dunleavy. So they had a very good team. But we were able to get up on them early in the series, and I felt like we had better depth and had a better overall team than the Rockets.

To win a title was a dream come true. I was a pretty lucky athlete. I won a title in high school, In college I was part of a team that won the NIT and the NCAA tournaments. And then I end up with the Celtics and win an NBA Championship. I think that I’m the only person that’s ever done that. It was kind of like putting the icing on the cake.

And the city – to be able to play in Boston was an unbelievable experience. The fans there are a lot like the Kentucky fans. It was like playing in a college town. I can remember the parade after we won, there were hundreds of thousands of fans out there. I’d never seen anything like it. It was a neat place to play.

 

You are part of a rare fraternity, winning NCAA and NBA championships for legendary teams. Does one mean more to you than the other?

I think they’re special in different ways. At Kentucky I played a major role in winning the championship. In Boston I didn’t get to play quite as much. But just being a part of a championship team is something that you’ll always remember, so both titles are equally special, just in different ways. To this day I have people coming up to me and asking me about my Kentucky days, or my Celtic days, so that brings back a lot of memories.

 

You didn’t play for Adolph Rupp or Red Auerbach, but both men are iconic. Please tell me a little about each.

The thing that I remember most about Rupp was that he was on the Olympic Committee when I arrived at Kentucky. At the time, freshmen weren’t really allowed to try out for the Pan American Games, and Rupp was able to get me an invite to Salt Lake City, Utah, where they had 150-200 players trying out for the team. I was able to go out there and make that team after my freshman year, so if it wasn’t for Rupp I wouldn’t have had that experience with Parish, and Otis Birdsong, and Johnny Davis and that group.

As for Red Auerbach – he was an unbelievable man. I can remember my father and I sitting in his office, negotiating my second contract, just the three of us. That’s the kind of guy that he was. Again, some of the trades that he pulled off were just amazing. I remember getting a call from KC Jones, who was one of my dearest friends and who had just been named head coach. KC told me that I’d just been traded to Phoenix for Dennis Johnson, and I just had to laugh and tell him that the Celtics had just gotten a pretty good deal. And that’s another one of those Auerbach trades that I’m talking about.

 

Final Question – What is the one memory of playing for the Boston Celtics that stands out among all of the others?

It would have to be that day the final buzzer sounded and we were world champions. As a matter of fact, I had the ball at the end of the game and I kept it – I still have it [laughs]. I had it signed by everybody.  The other thing would be the opportunity to play with the greatest front court ever. With Bird, Parish and McHale, you’ll never see a front court any better than that one. Even in today’s game, I’d put them up against anybody. It was a great experience with the great group of guys that we had on that team.

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The Jerry Sichting Interview

By:  Michael D. McClellan | He was like any other Indiana schoolboy of the day, raised on stories of Bobby Plump, John Wooden, and Oscar Robertson, his free time spent with a basketball in his hands, dreaming of his own chance at basketball stardom.  He was never big nor particularly fast, but he made up for any athletic deficiencies with heart, smarts, and moxie.  How else does an average point guard go on to play major college basketball, and then parley that into a ten year career in the NBA?  Sure, Jerry Sichting was average in many ways, but he was also something else: An overachiever cut from his first professional team; a fighter who refused to let a young Bobby Knight submarine his Big Ten aspirations; a producer of points and steals and assists, the things that scouts notice and NBA coaches keep on their rosters, regardless of size.

Born and raised in Martinsville, Indiana, it wasn’t long before a young Jerry Sichting found himself gravitating to the local park, hoisting shots in all manner of weather.  A four-year starter and star at Martinsville High School, Sichting also excelled at quarterback on the football team, earning All-State honors and generating cursory interest from Notre Dame and its outgoing head coach, Ara Parseghian.  The allure of South Bend was tempting, but with Joe Montana on the roster and little hope of seeing the field, the undersized Sichting chose to pursue basketball instead.

Several major colleges also expressed an interest in the tough-as-nails point guard with the sweet shooting stroke, including Indiana University and its brash head coach, Bobby Knight.  Sichting appeared set to sign with the Hoosiers, until the school unexpectedly rescinded the scholarship offer, forcing him to look elsewhere.  He signed with Purdue instead, following in Wooden’s footsteps and transforming himself into an All-Conference standout by the end of his senior season.

The NBA Draft was a completely different animal back then – more rounds, less fanfare – and Sichting’s fourth round selection by Golden State was met with little celebrity outside of Martinsville.  He held his own in training camp, but was cut when head coach Al Attles settled on a season-opening roster that included guards John Lucas, Phil Smith and former Celtic Jo Jo White.  Set adrift, Sichting gave the Continental Basketball Association a try, which lasted a full two days, before returning to Indiana and taking a job in a sporting goods store.

The 1979-80 NBA season came and went without so much as a phone call, and by the following summer Sichting wondered whether he would ever get another shot.  The Indiana Pacers, floundering at the time, held open tryouts.  Sichting was hardly in playing shape, but he was impressive enough to earn a spot on the team’s summer league roster – and, in the process, earn an invitation to veterans camp.  Improbably, he made the team.

The Pacers were decent during the 1980-81 NBA regular season, going 44-38 with a roster that included an aging George McGinnis.  The record was good enough to make the playoffs, where the team fell in the opening round to Dr. J and the Philadelphia 76ers.  A year later the Pacers were 35-47, and out of the playoffs entirely.  Indiana was positively dreadful during the 1982-83 season, going 20-62, but Sichting was solid as the team’s starting point guard, averaging 9.6 points and 5.3 rebounds, and playing well enough to earn a starting nod on occasion.  A 26-56 season followed in 1983-84, and a year later the team was 22-60.  By then, Sichting had had enough.

“I contacted the Celtics through Chris Ford,” Sichting says. “I was a free agent, and I had always wanted to play for the Boston Celtics. I didn’t know whether the team would be interested, but I thought that it was worth a try. There seemed to be some interest on their part, but then they drafted Sam Vincent. I really didn’t think I had a chance at that point.”

Red Auerbach liked the way Sichting handled the ball, so much so that he traded veteran guard Quinn Buckner to the Pacers and signed Sichting to an offer sheet.  Fifteen days later, he was officially a member of the Boston Celtics.  With Bill Walton, Scott Wedman and Sichting providing punch off the bench, the Celtics rolled to a 67-15 record and the team’s sixteenth NBA championship.

“It was an unbelievable feeling,” Sichting says. “From a basketball standpoint, I’d never been that excited in my life. I hadn’t been able to win a championship in high school, and I hadn’t won one at Purdue. To be able to win a championship with guys like Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish – the greatest frontline in NBA history – that’s something that I’ll take with me for the rest of my life.”

Take me back to your childhood in Martinsville.  What led you to the basketball court?

The main thing that drew me to basketball was, number one, growing up in Indiana.  Number two, my family moved when I was about three years old.  The property that the house was on was connected to a park, and the basketball court was about twenty feet from my backyard.  I grew up on the basketball court, playing outside whenever the weather permitted, and whenever the weather didn’t permit [laughs].  Being in a small town in Indiana, back in those days basketball was a major source of entertainment.  Everybody looked up to whoever played on the high school team, and your goal as a kid in grade school and junior high was to make the varsity basketball team.  And as you got closer to achieving that goal, then you maybe thought about making the Indiana All-Star Team, which was a huge deal in those days.  So that’s how I really go interested in basketball.  The guys that played on the varsity team would be over in that park a lot in the summer, and I would just try to do what they did.

 

You played for the legendary Sam Alford at Martinsville High School.  Please tell me about your high school basketball career.

Coach Alford arrived as I was coming in as a freshman.  He really rebuilt the program.  There had been some years when Martinsville had had good teams, but it had been fairly inconsistent.  In his first couple of years as head coach – especially my freshman year – we struggled a little bit.  He decided to play a lot of freshmen and sophomores.  We took our lumps because we played one of the most difficult schedules in the state.  I think we only won five or six games my freshman year, but my last couple of years we were consistently ranked in the state.

 

Was your high school like the Indiana school portrayed in Hoosiers?

We played in this old gym that was almost a high school version of the Boston Garden.  It was a big brick building called Glenn Curtis Gymnasium, and it sat separate from the rest of the school.  It was the same gym that Johnny Wooden played in.  It was an incredible atmosphere.  The tournament was still like Hoosiers, a single classification for all schools.  We didn’t win it all like in the movie, but it was a great experience nonetheless.

 

You were an All-State quarterback at Martinsville.

I liked football, but Martinsville had never had a winning football team.  Bill Siderewicz came in as the new coach, and the team went 9-1 during my freshman year.  It really got the whole town in a frenzy – it was as if the town had discovered football for the first time.  Coach Siderewicz talked me into going out for the team during my sophomore year, and we finished with another 9-1 season.  We were undefeated during my senior year, which was the first of five undefeated teams that Siderewicz would coach in his career.  He’s an Indiana football legend, and he’s enshrined in the Indiana Football Hall of Fame.

 

From what I hear, Notre Dame showed interest in you.

Notre Dame never actually offered me a scholarship, but I could have gone to Purdue or Indiana and played football.  Besides, Notre Dame had a pretty good quarterback on the roster by the name of Joe Montana [laughs].  I really never gave college football serious consideration.  I just played in high school because I liked it, and because we had some really good players on the team.  Going undefeated was one of the greatest experiences ever.

 

How close were you to playing basketball for Bobby Knight at Indiana?

My high school basketball coach was Sam Alford, who is another coaching legend.  Sam is enshrined in the Indiana Basketball Hall of Fame, and his son Steve was a great player who made it to the NBA.  He really wanted me to go to Indiana University.  I was being recruited by Coach Knight and I was giving it serious consideration, but Indiana gave the scholarship to another player before I could make up my mind.

 

Were you disappointed you didn’t play for the Hoosiers?

It was a great source of motivation.  To me, it was Coach Knight’s way of saying that I couldn’t play in the Big Ten.  I wanted to prove him wrong, and prove that I was tough enough to hang with the best programs and best players in the conference.

 

How did you end up choosing Purdue?

It came down to three schools:  Cincinnati, Louisville, and Purdue.  I had grown up being a huge fan of both Purdue Indiana.  There were only four channels to choose from back then, but all of the Indiana and Purdue games were televised.  I remember Rick Mount and those Purdue teams of the late Sixties and early Seventies.  Indiana had the Arsdale twins, Tom and Dick, playing around the same time.  So Indiana made a hard decision easy for me, and I decided to go to Purdue.

 

You were a First Team All-Big Ten during your senior season at Purdue.  Did you think you could play NBA basketball?

I thought the NBA was an outside shot at best, because I saw myself as a fringe player who needed the perfect situation to get there.  But I had confidence in my ability.  Playing in the Big Ten definitely helped, because the Big Ten was the best conference in the country in those days, hands down.

 

Hands down?

Almost every team had an NBA point guard, with the possible exception of Illinois.  Quinn Buckner was at Indiana.  Kelvin Ransey was at Ohio State.  Rickey Green was at Michigan.  Magic Johnson was at Michigan State.  Wes Matthews was at Wisconsin.  Minnesota had Ray Williams and Osborn Lockhart, who played for the Globetrotters.  Billy McKinney was at Northwestern.  So all of those guys matriculated into the NBA, and those were just the guards.  There were a lot of forwards and centers who made it to the NBA as well – Mychal Thompson, Kent Benson, Joe Barry Carroll…all of those guys were in the Big Ten.  That’s what really prepared me, and what gave me the confidence that I could play NBA basketball.  I knew that I’d be a bubble-type of player coming out of college, but I knew I had a shot if I got with the right team.

 

You were selected in the fourth round of the 1979 NBA Draft, by the Golden State Warriors.  What was that like?

It was an eye-opener.  Like any rookie coming into the league, I didn’t know quite what to expect.  It’s a huge jump up in talent.  Golden State had some older guards that were on guaranteed contracts, which was the case with Jo Jo White.  John Lucas was there.  Phil Smith was one of the team’s mainstays from that 1975 NBA championship team.  I thought I had a good camp, but I didn’t get a lot of opportunities to play in the exhibition games, so I was a little bit frustrated with that.  But being on the other end, several years later as a coach, I know how difficult it is when you have to make those last cuts.  You know a guy can probably play in the league, but you just don’t have a spot for him.  It was a numbers game, and it just didn’t work out in the end.

 

What did you do after the Warriors cut you?

I gave the CBA a shot.  I went out to Maine for a couple of days, but I didn’t like the CBA lifestyle – getting in a van, driving up-and-down the East Coast to play games, things like that.  So I resigned myself to the fact that I’d enjoyed a good college career and had taken a shot at the NBA and come up short.  I ended up getting a regular job back in Indianapolis.  It was a sporting good company.  I worked there for a year.

 

Suddenly, you’re on the outside looking in.  How does a gym rat like Jerry Sichting get his basketball fix?

I played in some industrial leagues and AAU tournaments.  I stayed somewhat in shape.  The guys that I worked with were gym rats themselves.  We played several times a week, and competed in a couple of different leagues.  It was fun, but I wasn’t in NBA shape.

 

A year later you end up getting your big break with the Indiana Pacers.  How it that play out?

The Pacers had just undergone a big shakeup in their front office.  Jack McKinney had been the Lakers’ head coach until he suffered a terrible head injury in a bicycle accident the year before.  The Lakers ended up winning the championship under Paul Westhead, so Jack lost his job and the Pacers hired him.  One of the first things Jack did was conduct something called a “Walter Mitty Camp,” which was basically open auditions. I think it was a way for the Pacers to test Jack’s mental faculties following that accident, but it also turned out to be the break I needed.

 

What were the Walter Mitty tryouts like?

We had our tryout at Hinkle Fieldhouse on the Butler University campus.  It was nearly a hundred degrees outside, the humidity was really high, and there was no air conditioning inside.  It was supposed to be a two-day tryout.  I lied to Jack and told him that I was in good shape, but I really didn’t know if I was going to be able to come back the second day.  Thankfully, they cut the tryouts to one day.  From there I was invited to rookie camp, was then selected to play in the LA summer league, and then invited to the Pacers’ veterans camp.   After jumping through those four hoops, I was selected to make the team.

 

You played your first five seasons with the Pacers.  What was it like to play against those great Celtic teams, and did you ever think that you would one day help lead them to an NBA Championship?

The Celtics were very good.  I remember those games well – we actually beat them a couple of times at home, but it almost felt like playing an away game because it was Larry Bird, and there were so many Celtics fans in Indiana.  We were a young team, and we really struggled, so going up against the Celtics was a playoff game atmosphere for us.  Beating the Celtics was definitely the highlight of our season.

 

George McGinnis was your teammate those first two seasons in Indy.  What was he like?

George is an Indiana legend.  I don’t know if there’s a guy to compare him to when he was in high school – I guess it would be somebody like a LeBron James.  He was a man among boys.  He was just so big and physically mature, and so quick at the same time.  Nobody could handle him when he was in his prime.  He only played a couple of years of college ball at Indiana, and then he went hardship and went to the ABA in the early 70s.  He was a legend at such a young age, because of what he did in high school and later at Indiana.  It was quite an experience to play with George.  I’m the only person to play on the same team with both George McGinnis and Larry Bird, which is pretty special for me because they are two of the best players to ever come out of Indiana – with the possible exception of Oscar Robertson.

 

I hear you were  a Celtics fan back in the day.

Growing up, my two favorite teams were the Pacers and the Celtics.  The Pacers were in the ABA in those days, that the Celtics were the greatest team in NBA history.  I followed them in the late 60s, and then on into the 70s when John Havlicek and Dave Cowens were running the show.  I just always liked the style of play – I felt that they played basketball the right way.

 

You became a free agent during the summer of ’85.  How did you end up signing with the Celtics?

I actually made a phone call to the Celtics, because I wanted to see if there was any interest.  They had just lost to the Lakers in ’85 Finals, and my wife encouraged me to reach out.  She felt that Boston would be looking for outside shooting, so I called and spoke with Chris Ford.  [Celtics GM] Jan Volk called me not long after that, and he said that Boston was definitely interested.  He ask me to call him back after the draft, but then they selected Sam Vincent out of Michigan State in the first round, so I decided not to call back.  A day or two later, Jan calls me and says, ‘I thought you were going to call.’  I said, ‘Well, I thought you got your point guard in Sam Vincent.’  He says, ‘Well, we like Sam, but you’re more of a proven commodity right now.  We’re still very interested in you.’  That kind of got the ball rolling.  I was coming off a stress fracture in ’85, so I went to Boston and had the doctors look at me.  I had a couple of interviews while I was there, and I went to KC Jones’ basketball camp that summer.  Not long after that I signed the contract.

 

Your arrival in Boston coincided with that of the great Bill Walton.

Bill was the NBA Sixth Man of the Year that year, and he provided a lot of stuff for that team.  He was a great passer, a great rebounder, and so intelligent.  He was on a mission that year.  He was probably the most focused guy from the first day of camp until the end of the season, because he had gone through so much adversity with his health.  I think he knew that this was probably his swan song.  He had a couple of years left in him, possibly, and he was finally in a position to be on another great team.  I think everybody would tell you that he was just a fantastic teammate.

 

Larry Bird was at the height of his powers during that 1985-86 season.  What was it like playing with the Hick From French Lick?

Yes he was.  Larry was a great player, obviously, and he was the leader of the team.  He definitely was all about winning.  The hard work that he put in carried over to everyone else on the team.  He could do some amazing things on the basketball floor.  He had a sixth sense for what was going to happen next – his anticipation and recognition of what was going to happen in the next second or two was really unparalleled.  It enabled him to do some things that other people with the same athletic ability couldn’t come close to doing.

 

The Celtics were practically unbeatable at home that season.  What was it like to play in the Boston Garden?

The Garden was a place like no other, especially in terms of the fans.  We thought we would never lose playing at home.  There were several games that year when we were down late, but I don’t think anybody – us on the bench, anybody who was on the court, or anybody in the stands – doubted that were going to come back and win.  It was only a matter of time, and it was only a matter of what the eventual winning margin was going to be.

 

Did the team click on immediately, or where there adjustments that had to be made?

It took us a little while to really jell that year because Walton and myself were new to the team.  Because of that, there were a few tweaks in the lineup, as well as some rotation changes from the year before.  We started rolling in early January.  There was a three week stretch where we were beating teams by an average of over twenty points.  We just got to clicking and everybody kind of fell into their roles and knew what everybody else on the team was going to do, night in and night out.  We were pretty much untouchable for a while.

 

What was it like meeting Red Auerbach for the first time?

Red was famous for negotiating directly with his players, but too be honest, I did most of my contract negotiations with Jan Volk.  Red was kind of standoffish at first.  Looking back, you almost had to win a championship to be accepted.  He wanted to wait, I think, to see how I did in the playoffs, and see exactly what this team was going to do.  After that, I remember getting a cigar from him when we won the championship.  The next year, we had some injuries and some problems, and there was one time when he came into the locker room.  He rarely spoke to the team as a group, but he came in once – we were struggling, and had lost several road games in a row – and he came in the locker room, and basically read everybody the riot act, and said that we weren’t playing like the Celtics.  It was late ’86, early ’87.  He told us that we were retaliating instead of instigating, which was one of his favorite sayings, and he said that nobody really wanted to go out there and fight, except for D.J [Dennis Johnson] and Little Jerry [laughs].  That’s what it called me from then on.

 

Let’s talk ’86 Playoffs.  Against Michael Jordan and the Bulls, you hit a huge shot in the second overtime of that game, breaking a tie at 131 and practically ending the Bulls’ season.  What did it mean to you to have the trust of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish to take a big shot like that?

That’s why I wanted to come to Boston.  I had kind of established myself in the league, but I was on a Pacers team that was a few years away from making the playoffs at that point.  I knew if I went to a team like Boston I wasn’t going to start, but I’d have a chance to play and perform, and to be on a team that had a chance to do something special.  So that’s what attracted me to Boston to begin with.  I knew I’d have an opportunity to step up and take a shot like that in the playoffs against a team like the Bulls, and I knew I could put the ball in the basket.  I wasn’t a great scorer by any stretch of the imagination, but I was a real good shooter.  So you just want to put yourself in those situations and see how you respond.  And to have guys like that who trust you to make a pressure shot like that is special.

 

Did it bother you coming off the bench?

Not at all.  I didn’t want to go there and just sit on the bench and not get any playing time at all, but I understood that Dennis and Danny [Ainge] were going to get the majority of the minutes.  In that type of role you just have to be ready – somebody is going to get hurt, or somebody is going to foul out, which is what happened to Dennis in that double overtime game against the Bulls.  You just have to go out and pick up where they left off.

 

The 1986 NBA Finals will forever be remembered for the Game 5 fight between you and Ralph Sampson.

The fans were merciless when we came back to Boston for Game 6.  I never saw Ralph play really well after that, especially in the Boston Garden.  He was an All-Star player at that point in his career, but I think that altercation took its toll on him.  As for the fight itself, it was one of those things that happens in the heat of the battle.  He kind of lost control, and before you know it you’ve got a bunch of guys out there on the floor and it was really a dangerous scene.  You had a few policemen out there trying to break it up, which isn’t good, either.  At times it’s best to let the players break it up.

The thing I regret about the whole thing is that it turned the game around.  We were actually in the lead when it happened, and had a chance to close them out, 4-1.  And then the crowd went absolutely berserk.  The Rockets gained the momentum after that fight, so that’s the only thing I really regret about it.  Once we got back to Boston we had a very chippy practice session, which only lasted about a half hour.  We were supposed to go through things at three-quarter speed, but everybody was so ticked off that there were fights ready to break out.  That’s one of the most intense practices that I’ve every been a part of as a player.  KC knew that we were ready to play, so he just cancelled practice at that point.  We came back an blew them out in Game 6.

What do you remember most about Game 6?

Everybody was sky-high to finish it out.  It was tight into the second quarter, but then the starters blew the Rockets right off the floor in the third quarter.  It was a blowout in the fourth, so KC just kind of bypassed Walton and myself and let some of the other bench players get some time on the court.  That was the right thing to do, but, as a competitor, you want to be out there on the court.  I wish I could have played a few more minutes in that game.

 

After working so hard to climb the mountain, what was it like to finally be a world champion?

It was a dream come true.  Once I joined the Celtics, winning an NBA Championship was our goal from the first day of training camp.  Anything less that a championship that year was going to be a failure.  To finally get it done, that was the great part.  We had a championship parade through downtown Boston, and close to two million people attended.  It was just incredible.

 

The sky seemed the limit in the moments after that Game 6, but everything would change just a few short weeks later.  Where were you when you heard that Len Bias had died?

I was back in Indiana at that point.  I was at my in-laws house.  I remember my wife waking me up pretty early in the morning – there was a phone call from Boston.  I can’t even remember who exactly it was that called, but I just couldn’t believe the news.  It just seemed like a bad dream.  I started calling other people within the organization, and all of a sudden it’s on the TV and on the radio.  That’s when it finally hit me that it was true.  Len Bias was going to be a great, great player.  The next great Celtic.

 

In 2002, you were inducted into the Indiana Basketball Hall of Fame.  What does this honor mean to you?

It’s a great honor.  Indiana has long been known for its high school basketball, and it’s truly like no other place in that respect.  Back when I played high school ball, it was really the tail end of an era.  There was no cable TV, no computers, and no video games.  There was just so much more focus on high school basketball.  It’s really not the same today, so I’m glad that I grew up playing in that era.  Being inducted into the Indiana Basketball Hall of Fame, alongside guys like Larry Bird and Oscar Robertson, is as good as it gets.

 

Final Question:  If you could offer one piece of advice on life to others, what would that be?

Have a dream, have a goal, and work hard to achieve it.  Most people that end up at top are usually blessed with special gifts, whether it is in sports, music, or whatever the occupation might be.  For the rest of us, there is no substitute for hard work and dedication.

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The M.L. Carr Interview

By:  Michael D. McClellan | To a generation of Boston Celtics fans, M.L. Carr was the towel-waving agitator best remembered for antagonizing Lakers players and fans alike during that epic 1984 NBA Finals.  To another generation of fans, Carr was the Celtics’ coach and general manager during some of the darkest days in franchise history, overseeing one of the team’s worst seasons in a failed attempt to land Wake Forest star Tim Duncan.  Either way, Carr’s mark on the Boston Celtics is indelible.  He is a member of the ’81 and ’84 Celtic championship teams that overcame long odds to hang banners in the old Boston Garden, and he remains fiercely proud of his connection to one of the NBA’s greatest franchises.

Yes, M.L. Carr still bleeds green.

“There’s not another organization in sports that matches it,” he says quickly.  “The Boston Celtics epitomize greatness and tradition.  The Lakers are close, but they’re still looking up at us.  Just the way I like it.”

Carr’s road to basketball success started at tiny Guilford College in Greensboro, North Carolina.  Picked by the Kansas City Kings in the fifth round of the 1973 NBA Draft, Carr also found himself selected by the ABA’s Kentucky Colonels.  However, the Wallace, North Carolina native quickly learned that the path to the pros wouldn’t be easy; cut by both the Kings and Colonels, Carr balled for the Hamilton Pat Pavers and the Scranton Apollos of the Eastern Basketball Association before playing for Israel Sabras in the European Pro Basketball league.

The year in Israel allowed Carr to hone his skills and grow as a player – he led Israel Sabras to a league title, topping the league in scoring and finishing second in rebounding en route to being named Most Valuable Player – before signing a one-year contract with the Spirits of St. Louis, a year before the league folded.

Carr’s brief ABA career earned him a spot on the league’s All-Rookie team.  It was enough to catch the eye of the Detroit Pistons, and Carr wasted little time signing his first NBA contract.  He would play three seasons in a Detroit uniform before signing a free agent contract with the Celtics, his arrival coinciding with the arrival of Indiana State forward Larry Bird and head coach Bill Fitch, returning Boston its familiar place among the NBA’s elite.

Winners of 29 games a season earlier, the Celtics would finish 61-21 during the 1979-80 regular season, reaching the 1980 Eastern Conference Finals.  Down 3-1 to the Philadelphia 76ers in the ’81 Eastern Conference Finals, the Celtics rallied to win the series and advance to the 1981 NBA Finals against the Houston Rockets.  Six games later, the Celtics were champions and Carr was on top of the basketball world.

“Best feeling in the world,” he says quickly.

The Celtics would win another championship in 1984, defeating the hated Lakers in seven games.  It was a classic series, and remains one of the highest-rated NBA Finals in league history.  For Celtics fans of a certain age, the lasting image of Carr waving his trademark towel still reverberates.

“Fans identified with M.L. Carr and the towel,” says Bill Walton with a laugh.  “They lived vicariously through him, and they loved watching him get under the Lakers’ skin.”

Carr’s NBA career would end 47 games into the 1984-85 regular season, but his work with the Celtics was far from done.  He remained connected with team ownership, and in 1994 was named general manager.  He also coached the team for two seasons – 1995-96, and 1996-97.  It was a dark period in team history – Bird, McHale and Parish were long gone, and the team had lost budding star Reggie Lewis to a heart attack during the summer of ’93.  Still, Carr worked hard to restore glory to the once-proud franchise as GM.

“I have no regrets,” he says, settling in for the interview.  “I had a good run.  I have two NBA championship rings and a lifetime of memories to show for it.”

Please tell me a little about your childhood, and some of the things that led you to the basketball court.

I grew up in the segregated South, in the small town of Wallace, North Carolina.  It was an agricultural town.  I was twelve years old when I went out to the local golf course to get a job as a caddie.  I didn’t know anything about caddying, but I met a man there who would go on to have an incredible impact on my life.  His name is Davis Lee.  He took me under his wing that day and predicted that, with my attitude and his wallet, we’d make a great partnership.  We’ve remained close for 50 years – and he and I are now in business together in Huntsville, Alabama.

Not only did he hire me as a caddie that day, he also convinced me that I should help integrate the local high school.  There were people on both sides who didn’t think it was a good idea for me to go to a white high school, but it turned out to be a great decision.  He was also the one who convinced me to go out for basketball.  I told him that I didn’t like basketball, but he was persistent and really stayed after me.  When I told him that I wasn’t a very good player, he countered by paying my way to a basketball camp.  It was held at Kimble College – Kimble University now – and it was one of the oldest and largest camps in the country.  He said that I’d come back and make the high school basketball team.

 

How did it turn out?

That camp was a life-changing experience for me.  There were two reasons it was such a big deal for me – the legendary John Wooden was there, and so was ‘Pistol’ Pete Maravich.  It was an unbelievable experience.  Pete pulled me aside and let me hang out with him at the camp – it would be like LeBron James doing that one of the kids at his camp today, or a Larry Bird asking a kid to hang out with him for the week.  So that really got me excited about the game.

 

You played your college ball at Guilford College in Greensboro, NC.

Guilford is about a two-and-a-half hour drive from Wallace, close enough to home but still far enough away to fully experience life on a college campus.  My freshman year we placed fourth in the 1970 NAIA Tournament.  As a senior we finished with a 29-5 record and defeated the University of Maryland-Eastern Shore in the NAIA championship game.  I played forward for Coach [Jack] Jensen, and I learned so much from him.  Our team went 101-25 those four years.  I averaged 18 points and 12 rebounds my senior year and was name NAIA First Team All-American, but the thing I was most proud of was graduating from Guilford with academic honors and a history degree.  The decision to go to Guilford was one of the best decisions I ever made.  I’m still involved in the school today.

 

You took a circuitous route to the Celtics.  Please take me back to this period on your life.

I spent three years trying to figure out how to get into either the NBA or the ABA.  I was cut from three teams.  I ended playing in the old Eastern League, and that’s where Red [Auerbach] discovered me.  He thought I could eventually play at the NBA level, so he pulled some strings with a European League team called the Israel Sabras.  I experienced success and ended up getting noticed by scouts in both leagues.

 

How long were you in Israel?

I played one season there.  When I came back I decided to play for the ABA’s Spirits of St. Louis under a one-year deal.

 

What was your time like with the Spirits of St. Louis?

It was a great group of players, a very talented group, but we really weren’t a real good team.  We had great individual stars.  On paper it was one of the most talented collection of players ever.  Moses Malone, Marvin Barnes, Caldwell Jones, Don Chaney, Mike D’Antoni.  Joe Mullaney started that season as the head coach, and Rod Thorn finished it.  It was a great learning experience for me because both of those men really knew their basketball.  It helped to transition me from the ABA to the NBA.

 

How did you end up playing for the Pistons?

The ABA folded in 1976, and the two leagues merged.  I was considered a free agent because I’d only signed for one year, and Detroit was offering me the best deal at the time – it was for three years, so I couldn’t turn that down.

 

In Detroit you played for Dick Vitale.

Dick Vitale was a very animated coach.  He came to the Pistons after coaching the University of Detroit.  It was his first pro coaching opportunity.  For anyone who’s seen him as an announcer, he was the same way as a coach.  He was so intense.  The one thing I’ll always remember him for – and thank him for – is that he let me play the third most minutes in the NBA during my free agent year, and that gave me the opportunity to become one of those high-paid athletes.

 

A year later you join the Celtics.  Things weren’t exactly rosy in Boston at the point in time.

The Celtics were in a rebuilding mode and were coming off a lot of turmoil.  Dave Cowens was making a real effort to be a part of the rebuild.  Tiny Archibald was coming back from an off year.  Gerald Henderson and Cedric Maxwell were also a part of that team.  We also had this young kid from French Lick that was supposed to be a pretty good player [laughs].

 

Red wasted little time getting the Celtics back on track.

Red had assembled a good nucleus to build around, and then he started getting rid of the players who were causing all of the problems.  He was willing to sacrifice talent but he wasn’t going to sacrifice character.  We had a very good year, winning 61 games and reaching the Eastern Conference Finals.  Even though we didn’t win it all, that year was crucial because it put us back on track and we became a championship caliber team.  The other good thing about season was that it gave me a chance to play with my mentor, Pete Maravich.  It was an unbelievable thrill to be on the same team with him.

 

Let’s talk ’81 Eastern Conference Finals.  The Celtics were down 3-1 to the heavily favored 76ers.  What happened?

Red explained that we had a great opportunity.  He told us not to look at it being down 3-1, that we needed to approach it a game at a time.  It’s a cliché, but it was exactly what we were up against.  They had to beat us one more time.  So Red just kept reinforcing that fact.  He just kept saying, ‘Don’t let them beat you.’  I remember being in Game 5 of that series, and getting a rebound and getting fouled by Dr. J.  And I’m going to the line and the Sixers call timeout to ice me, and Cedric Maxwell comes over and says, ‘Don’t worry about these foul shots – you make them both and we keep playing.  You miss and we get to go on summer vacation.’  It was an incredible comeback, that’s the reality of it, and we knew that once we beat the Sixers that it was pretty much anticlimactic.  We knew we were going to beat the Houston Rockets in the NBA Finals.

 

There wasn’t any doubt?

We knew we were going to win.  We’d gone through such an incredible battle with the Sixers that there wasn’t a doubt in the world.  Beating the Rockets was a foregone conclusion.  We knew there was no way we’d come up short.  Talent-wise, we felt we were the superior team, and we had such a will to win after losing to the Sixers the year before and then coming back to beat them to reach the Finals.  We knew we were going to take care of business.

 

What was it like to finally win that championship?

As a Celtics fan growing up I was well aware of the ‘Celtic Mystique’ and what all of those championship banners were all about.  And like I said, when we beat the Sixers we knew we were going to win a championship and get to put our own banner up in the rafters of the old Boston Garden.  It was so special for me, because of everything I’d been through – being cut, having to play in Israel, everything leading up to me putting on a Celtics uniform.  And then to finally win that championship, there’s nothing in the world like that feeling.  It overcomes you.

 

What memory stands out most?

I remember coming back from Houston and landing at the airport, and all of the people that were there to greet us.  I’d never in my life experienced anything like that.  People were going crazy.  And I remember the parade, going through the city with all of the people there, and to me it just felt like it was more than just basketball.  I guess it was because we’d just carved out our own place among all of those other great Celtic teams.

 

Was race ever an issue when you played for the Celtics? 

I’m a history major.  You go back three years prior to us winning that championship, and it was the height of busing in Boston.  There were so many negative connotations around that.  I vividly remember seeing the young black men being poked with the American flag, and that was resonating with me as I traveled through the city as a hero.  I remember being amazed at how I was being treated, when just three years earlier Boston had given itself such a black eye with that incident.  The people were cheering us and celebrating our achievement, honoring us as champions, and I just wished we could have bottled that up and applied it to more than just the Celtics.  I wished it could have been used to transform the thinking of an entire region.  Obviously Boston has come around and it’s one of the greatest cities in the world right now, but it went through some dark days to get here, and I think the Celtics played a part in helping with that.

 

The Celtics win the 1981 NBA Championship, only to be swept out of the playoffs the very next year by the Milwaukee Bucks.  What happened?

We lost to the Bucks in four, but to be honest, any team in the playoffs that year could have beat us in four games.  To be quite frank:  We came to the conclusion, as a team, that it was time for our coach to go.  I make no bones about that.  Bill Fitch was a very good coach, but he was also very strict, and he couldn’t loosen up the reins after we became more of a veteran team.  He still wanted to control everything, and he wanted to beat you down over everything, and it eventually wore thin with the team.  And I’ll be honest with you – if we were properly motivated, there was no way in the world we would have lost for games to the Milwaukee Bucks that year.  No way.  But we did lose four in a row because there was some internal stuff going on.  If you remember, the next year we won a championship.

 

Indeed.  Red fires Fitch, and replaces him with KC Jones.

Bill Fitch was the perfect coach when the roster was populated with younger, immature guys with very little professional experience.  KC Jones was the perfect coach for a veteran team.  He worked us hard but he treated us like veterans.  He wasn’t soft – he was a very demanding coach who held us to the highest standards set by Celtics teams from the past, and he had a point of reference because he was on so many of those championship teams.  He let us know about it:  No matter how many rebounds you got, your head couldn’t get too big because [Bill] Russell had gone out and gotten 40.  No matter how many points you scored, it didn’t matter because [John] Havlicek had the team record with 56.

 

As a coach, KC always looked cool under pressure.

He’d played in so many important games where the Celtics would be down six with a minute to go, so he knew how to get the best out of us without leaning on us in a negative way.  By the time KC arrived Larry [Bird] had already matured, and he had a bunch of veterans around him – Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, guys like that – so it was an ideal time for KC to take over.

 

That 1983-84 team was special.

Our motto that year was ‘Don’t Be Denied’.  And we weren’t.  We won the championship that no one thought we would win.

 

What do you remember most about beating the Lakers?

The final seconds of Game 7.  No one thought we could beat the Lakers.  They were the thoroughbreds, we were the Clydesdales.  It was a very physical series, and that’s exactly what we wanted because we knew that’s the only way we could beat those guys.  If you remember, there was Kevin McHale’s hit on Kurt Rambis, and there was Larry Bird bumping Michael Cooper out-of-bounds.  The series was full of things like that.  We knew that we had to physically beat them, because they had never played that kind of game.  It didn’t take the Lakers long to learn, but in that series it was the element of surprise that we needed.  So, for me, being back in the old Boston Garden for Game 7, with twelve seconds left on the clock, and knowing that we were going to be world champions when absolutely no one gave us a chance but us…that is the thing that I remember the most.

 

That series is still one of the highest rated series in NBA Finals history.

There were so many things that captured the fascination of fans everywhere.  You had Jack Nicholson in the stands, giving us the choke sign.  You had the fight with Rambis and McHale.  You had the East Coast team going up against the West Coast team.  Glitz going up against blue collar.  And the history between the two teams – that intense rivalry between Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain – only added fuel to the fire.  It was the perfect storm and it seemed like everyone stopped what they were doing to focus on that series.

 

Your passion and positive attitude are well known – do you feel like this had an influence on how that series played out?

I think so.  My goal was to make sure that we played as loose and as confidently as possible, and if that meant being a cheerleader and a motivator, then that was my role.  And at that point in my career I wasn’t on the court a lot.  When I did get in the game I tried my best to make a positive impact to help the team – a big steal, a three point shot, a key rebound, a couple of minutes of tough defense, whatever I could contribute.  The media didn’t get to see us at practice or behind-the-scenes, but I made sure I kept reminding the guys that this opportunity was special, and that we might not get this chance again.  I kept telling them that we had to stay focused and to seize the moment.

 

In Los Angeles, you were Public Enemy Number One.

People remember me as an antagonist because I waved that towel and got under the opposing team’s skin.  That was all part of the plan.  If I could take some of the pressure and attention off of Larry, Robert and Kevin, then I was doing my job because they could loosen up and focus on playing basketball.  Just leave the antagonizing to me.  It was a bravado that got under the skin of the fans more than the players, but it helped us as a team remember who we were.  I never let them forget that we were the Celtics and that we expect to win.

 

Lakers fans have long memories.

[Laughs.]  I remember going to LA after that series and a guy at a restaurant refused to serve me.  He said he wasn’t going to serve anyone associated with the Boston Celtics.  I just said, ‘Great, I don’t want your greasy burgers anyway.’

 

You won 2 NBA Championships.  Which one means the most to you, and why?

The 1984 championship, without a doubt.  The first one was really special, but everyone expected us to beat the Houston Rockets.  We didn’t have a lot to prove in terms of being the best in the ’81 NBA Finals, because once we got by the Sixers everyone knew that we’d just beaten the best team in the playoffs.

No one thought we’d beat the Lakers in ’84.  Even the writers in our own city.  We had to prove we were better than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson, and we were able to do that.  That series is talked about today because we were able to defy those odds.  So many memories – Gerald Henderson with the big steal, Dennis Johnson with the big baskets when we needed them the most in Game 4, Cedric Maxwell telling us to jump on his back in Game 7 and then delivering with a huge game to help wrap up the series.  McHale dominating down low, Larry hitting shots from all over the court.  It was a great team effort.

 

You were cut by the Celtics 47 games into the 1984-85 regular season.  Were you prepared for that?

I was, because I knew what getting cut felt like.  I didn’t go into the league as a first round pick with lots of money.  I made mine the hard way and was able to take care of what I’d made, and I knew that there was another world out there beyond playing professional basketball.  And I knew what it was like to work – I’d worked in a federal penitentiary and I’d sold cars on the front side of my career, and I made sure that I learned from my mentors so that I’d be prepared for life after basketball.

 

What was the transition like?

Robert Kraft, who now owns the New England Patriots, asked me to serve as a board member for Channel 7, which helped me how big businesses work behind the scenes.  The president of the Bank of Boston gave me an opportunity to become involved in a community outreach program.  Jim Davis, the founder and chairman of New Balance, brought me on as a board member.  All of these things helped with the transition, because idle time is the biggest thing any athlete faces when transitioning from their playing days.  When the cheers stop coming, the boos stop coming, the ball stops bouncing, and the team camaraderie comes to an end, that’s when everything stops abruptly and there’s a deafening silence that causes a lot of guys to go into a deep depression.  They’re not equipped to deal with that.  But I was prepared, so I didn’t have to deal with figuring out the next chapter in my life.

 

You weren’t there for that ’86 championship, but I hear you stayed closely connected to the players.

To me, that 1986 Celtics team is the greatest team ever assembled.  But the team that impressed me the most was the ’87 team.  I have more respect for that team than any team that I ever saw play.  There was so much adversity.  Parish playing with two twisted ankles in the playoffs.  Larry with the elbow injury.  Kevin McHale playing on a broken foot.  Bill Walton battling the foot problems and unable to play.  And these guys take this thing to Game 6 of the ’87 NBA Finals – a series that they had no business being in, quite frankly.  They just kept getting up off the mat and battling.  They lost that series to the Lakers, but they didn’t get beat.

 

Let’s talk about the legendary Red Auerbach.

When I first met Red, I’d just gotten cut from the Kansas City Kings.  Red called and said he’d like to meet with me, so I went to Boston and met with him in his office.  He tells me to sit down, and then he tells me that he doesn’t have a spot for me on this team.  I’m thinking to myself that he could have told me that over the phone.  Then he tells me that he thinks he’ll have a spot for me next year.  He says he wants to send me to Israel to play,where he could hide me while I get another year’s worth of experience under my belt.  I’m thinking to myself, ‘Israel?’  If he wanted to hide me, why didn’t he try to hide me somewhere in Harlem instead [laughs]?  But I didn’t ask any questions.  If Red Auerbach thought a year in Israel could get me into the NBA then I’d pack my bags and head overseas.  And that’s exactly what I did.

 

Red always seemed a step ahead of the competition.

Red had a vision, and he always talked about getting people to buy into that vision.  He preached having a clarity of vision.  Larry Bird was another example of Red’s vision – he drafted Larry a year early and then waited for him to turn pro.  And we all know how that turned out.

 

Tell me about Bill Russell.

The first time I met Bill Russell I’d just signed with the Celtics.  He was doing broadcasting work for CBS-TV at the time, and we were getting ready to play Philly.  He walks up to me and says, ‘M.L. Carr.’  And I say, ‘How are you doing, Mr. Russell?’  He says, ‘Fine.  Guess What?  I’m going to turn you into a household word today.  You know what word that is?’  I said, ‘No, what?’  He says, ‘Garbage.’  And then he breaks out in a big grin and lets loose with that famous laugh of his.  That was his good-natured way of welcoming me to the team.  Russ has been very supportive to me over the years.

 

Tell me about John Havlicek.

My first encounter with John came when I was a member of the Detroit Pistons.  It was my first game against the Celtics – and trust me, I was a Celtics fan growing up – and I had the task of guarding John Havlicek.  He got the quickest and easiest 27 points that anybody had ever scored on me.  He would run down the court and run me off of either Paul Silas or Dave Cowens, and then he’d be wide open for an easy jumper.

Well, later that season we play the Celtics in Boston, and I decided I wasn’t going to let John run me into Silas or Cowens, and that I wouldn’t let them pop me in the chest the way they did in the previous game.  My strategy was to rough up John before he could get me into those screens.  Well, the first time down the court I bump John pretty hard, and I learned that that’s the worst thing you could do in Boston.  I thought the fans were going to come out of the stands after me.  It was almost like I’d hit the pope [laughs].

 

Do you think that Havlicek’s accomplishments tend to get overshadowed by the players that came after him – especially Larry Bird and Paul Pierce?

Not only that, when you look at what guys like Havlicek accomplished you realize that it was a different era.  It was tougher back then.  The travel was tougher.  They didn’t have the same nutrition that they have today.  Sports medicine was in the Dark Ages back then.  What John did was unbelievable when you think about it.  Guys like John, Jerry West, Russ and Chamberlain.  That’s why I don’t like to compare eras.  When I retired we flew first class.  Guys back then traveled by car and train.  Teams today have their own private jets.

 

You came back to the Celtics in the ‘90s and took over as the team’s general manager.

It was a great opportunity that came about because I was chasing [team owner] Paul Gaston and constantly trying to buy the team from him – I’d put together an ownership group that would have had the resources to purchase the Celtics.  He had no interest in selling at the time, so he asked me if I’d be interested in running the team.  For me, I thought that would be the next best thing, and that it would give me the inside track if he ever did decide to sell.

 

What was that experience like for you?

It was a great experience, because it gave me a chance to give back to a Celtics family that had been so great to me over the years.  It gave me the opportunity to guide the team through some very tough times.  When I arrived, the talent level clearly wasn’t where it had been.  The team was in transition.  And realistically, it was going to be a few years before we got it back.  So I eventually decided to run the basketball operations, and then to also coach it at the same time.

 

Did you ever have second thoughts to becoming the head coach?

[Boston Globe sportswriter] Will McDonough was up front and honest with me.  I was talking to him about the coaching position, and I asked him what he thought.  He said, ‘Are you kidding?  Get the longest contract you can get, and get the most money you can get.   That way, when I kick the crap out of you in the paper, and you’ll be laughing all the way to the bank.’

 

Your two-year stint as head coach didn’t end well.

Red tried to talk me out of it.  He didn’t like the idea.  He said that I had such a good name in the city, and that I had the respect of the fans, and that it was going to be a big risk.  He said that my reputation could take a big hit.  I listened to what he had to say, but I was convinced that I was the best person to take the team through what was certain to be a very rough period in franchise history.  I was willing to take the hits in order to get the team into a place where we had some good draft picks, and then I knew it would be time to step aside.

 

Was coaching as hard as you’d envisioned?

Much more difficult.  I never could have envisioned some of the things that were said and done by the fans during that time.  I’ve never talked about it until now, but I’d walk into my office and my assistant, Becky, would be in tears.  I’d ask her what was going on.  She was reading letters from irate fans – there were death threats and all kinds of stuff coming in.  And I just never thought it would go to that level.  I’d discuss it privately with Red and keep it behind closed doors, and then I’d only let the public see my positive side, but it was tough.

 

Did the fan criticism ever cross the line?

There were people who were trying to dig up dirt on me.  People who would go down to my mother’s house unannounced, and without my knowledge, and of course she’s going to let them in and make them feel at home.  They were there to dig up dirt on me, all because I was running and coaching the Celtics and the team was going through some tough times.  It was very hard on my family.

 

How different would things have been if Len Bias and Reggie Lewis had lived?

The team wouldn’t have gone through the slide, and I wouldn’t have been general manager and head coach.  There would have been a nice transition from Bird, McHale and Parish, and I think the team would have remained very competitive during the ‘90s.  Those were two great players.

 

Where were you when you heard that Bias had passed away?

I was walking to a meeting with my financial adviser, and someone on the street asked me if Len Bias was going to be okay.  I said that he was going to be more than okay, that he was going to be unbelievable.  Then I walk a little farther and someone else asks me the same thing, and I’m talking about how he’s going to be the next great Celtic, and that’s when this person tells me that Bias had had a heart attack and died.  I refused to believe it.  But then I walked into my financial adviser’s office and he’s telling me about news reports of Bias’ death.

 

How did Bias’s death effect Red?

Red was devastated.  That was the first time that I could ever remember Red not having an answer for something.  He really liked Len.  It broke his heart.  He also knew that the Celtics had lost someone who was going to be special.  He said he knew this kid, and that there was no way Bias would do drugs.

 

Last question – If you could give someone a piece of advice what would that be?

Don’t be afraid to ask for help – and always be willing to give help.  Too many times we are afraid to ask for help; asking for help is a sign of strength, not a sign of weakness.  And remember, riches are to enrich the lives of others.  We’ve all had people help us in this life.  We should be sure to do the same whenever we can.

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The Scott Wedman Interview

By: Michael D. McClellan | It’s easy to get lost in Larry Bird’s shadow, but Scott Wedman was never about limelight or acclaim.  The quiet Kansan with the picture-perfect release and feathery touch may have flown under the radar during his time with the Celtics, but his contributions were never lost on those who played alongside him.  Bird, never one to offer feint praise, long admired Wedman’s work ethic and commitment to diet and exercise, calling him the best-conditioned athlete on the team.  Bill Walton raved about his selflessness.  Kevin McHale called him a super sub. Head coach KC Jones compared him to the Celtics first great Sixth Man, Frank Ramsey.

“There were times out there when Scott Wedman was the best player on the planet and he couldn’t get in the game because Larry was playing so well,” says Walton.  “But that is what helped make those teams so great.  Scott sacrificed his own game for the greater good, and he was always ready when called upon.”

“When I arrived in Boston, everyone knew it was Larry’s team,” Wedman says.  “Larry would always tell me I was too short to guard him, then he’d post me up, and he’d score a lot in there. Then he’d tell me he was going to do it again. He made me a much tougher player mentally.  He helped to keep me sharp.”

As a member of two NBA World Championship teams with the Boston Celtics, Wedman earned a well-deserved reputation as both a dead-eye marksman and quintessential teammate.  A vegetarian who drank bottled water and practiced yoga regularly, Wedman was ahead of his time in his holistic approach to fitness.

“Scott was was taking care of his body in ways that separated him from other NBA players during that era,” says KC Jones.  “Back then, you didn’t see players meditating, or doing yoga, or eating organic food.  That was Scott.  And he was always ready to play.  He was a vital piece of our team. He knew that players like Larry and Kevin were going to get their minutes, and he accepted his role without hesitation. He had the perfect attitude. As a coach, you couldn’t ask for anything more.  He was an important piece of two championship teams.”

Wedman’s championship journey began at his parent’s farm in Harper, Kansas, where he practiced shooting baskets on a rim nailed to the family barn.  After relocating to Denver, Wedman became an All-State player at Mullen High School, sparking a recruiting war between Wyoming and Colorado. Colorado won out.  By the end of his junior season he had begun to attract the attention of NBA scouts.

The Kansas City Kings selected Wedman sixth overall in the 1974 NBA Draft, where he made the All-Rookie First Team.  He played seven seasons for the Kings, becoming a two-time NBA All-Star, before signing a free agent contract with the Cleveland Cavaliers.  After a season and a half in Cleveland, Wedman’s career experienced a much-needed reboot, and along with it, a renaissance; the January 14, 1983 trade sending Wedman to the Celtics for Darren Tillis and cash produced championships over the Lakers in ’84 and the Rockets in ’86.  Wedman, who had been a starter and offensive focal point in both Kansas City and Cleveland, was suddenly cast as a rotation player behind Larry Bird, but the selfless super-sub could have cared less.

“I wanted to win,” he says with a smile.  “Being traded to Boston was the best thing that could have happened to me.”

You were born on July 29th, 1952 in Harper, Kansas.  Take me back to your childhood.

We lived in Harper a very short time during my childhood– my parents moved to Denver when I was five years old.  Harper was a farming community, so there were plenty of wide-open spaces for kids to play.  Both sets of grandparents were there, so it was a good, wholesome family atmosphere.  We moved back to Harper briefly, which was during my fourth and fifth grade years, before moving to Denver for good.  I have fond memories of my time there, though.  Being close to my grandparents and enjoying them are probably the memories that stand out most.

 

You played your high school ball in Denver.

I was raised Catholic and attended Mullen, which is a Christian Brothers Catholic school.  It’s known for both academics and athletics, so the majority of the student body was there to excel in one or the other – or, in some cases, both.  As a freshman I wasn’t much athletically.  I was 5’-6” tall and 120 pounds, which made me one of the smallest players on the team.  That first year I was second string on the B team, but at least I didn’t get cut [laughs].  It took me a while for my body to catch up with my skill level.  Ny my senior year I was 6’-4” varsity player and made the All-State team.

 

Who were some of the people who helped shape your game?

I was fortunate to have a good basketball foundation prior to attending Mullen.  A gentleman named Bill Harris was my first significant coach, and he did a fantastic job of teaching me the fundamentals.  He was a Denver policeman who volunteered his time and energy, and who provided a real calming effect as I began my career in competitive athletics.  He coached my sixth grade team to the city championship, worked with me for more than two years, and helped to get my game on solid footing.

My high school coach at Mullen was Rick Egloff, who played quarterback at the University of Wyoming.  He led the Cowboys to the 1966 Sun Bowl team.  He was a young head coach, probably twenty-four or twenty-five at the time, and was very supportive in my development as a basketball player.  He contacted Bill Strannigan, then the head coach at the University of Wyoming, who offered me a full scholarship to play basketball.  The University of Colorado entered the picture at about the same time, so I had two schools from which to choose.  I ended up choosing Colorado and went there on a partial scholarship.

 

At Colorado, you set the field goal percentage record by shooting 53.5% from the floor.  As a professional, you shot above 50% for three consecutive seasons and earned a reputation as one of the NBA’s most deadly shooters.  What was the secret to such outstanding marksmanship?

I think my secret was a love of the game.  For me, practice was never laborious.  I would practice with the team and then work out on my own, and I truly enjoyed ever moment of it.  My goal was always the same – to make ever shot.  This helped me to stay focused on the proper mechanics, such as squaring up, releasing the ball, and following through.  I think enjoying basketball so much was a big advantage for me, because I wanted to learn more and I stayed longer to practice on that aspect of my game.  Also, it really helped that I had excellent coaches and teachers along the way.

 

How much of an adjustment was the jump from high school to college?

At Colorado, freshman weren’t allowed to play on the varsity team.  That was probably a good thing for me, because I don’t think I was ready to play at that level of competition.  Cliff Meely was on the varsity squad – he would later go on to play several years with the Houston Rockets in the NBA – and I remember going against him in practice for the first time.  He was the most awesome player I’d ever seen.  It felt like playing against a super being [laughs].  But those types of experiences make you better, and by my sophomore year I was ready to play major college basketball.  The team suffered some injuries and we started the season 0-8, but we ended up having a pretty good year.  I think I averaged 15 points-per-game.

 

What aspect of your game did you focus on after that first season?

I concentrated on my jumping.  I worked hard to improve my vertical leap – I’d put on a weight vest and do between 100 and 200 explosive jumps – because I felt that it would help me to become a better player.  Spring was always one of my favorite times to work on my game.  I could play without restriction once the season was over, and this gave me the opportunity to expand on my skills.  It became an extension of what I was doing during basketball season, and I couldn’t imagine doing it any other way.

Russell “Sox” Walseth was the head coach at Colorado, and he was the one who really helped to improve my defense.  Sox was an icon at CU, where he coached both the men’s and women’s basketball teams.  I enjoyed his practices tremendously – I was usually the first to arrive and the last to leave – and his instruction was so valuable in terms of my growth as a basketball player.  He passed away earlier this year.  It was a great loss – Sox meant a great deal to me.

 

Sounds like you were a gym rat.

I never stopped shooting.  While with the Celtics, I remember Danny Ainge giving me a hard time for shooting so much.  He used to tell me that I was going to wear myself out, and that I needed to save myself for the games.  He was probably right [laughs], but I really enjoyed shooting the basketball.

 

When did you start thinking about the pro game as a career?

The prospect of playing professional basketball came as quite a shock, especially for someone still learning to play the college game.  I didn’t think about the NBA until after my junior season.  I was surprised to learn that some scouts had watched me play, and that they’d shown some interest in drafting me.  The Kings sent scouts to watch me play in the Big Eight Tournament.  Until then, the NBA – or the ABA, for that matter – seemed too far-fetched for me to take seriously.

 

Did the prospect of a pro career change how you approached the game?

Not really.  I just kept working hard and getting ready for my senior season, and I always went out onto the court determined to do my best.

 

You suffered an injury late in your senior season.

I tore my ankle with three or four games left on our schedule.  I was sure that the injury would hurt my chances of being drafted, but the Kings flew a doctor in to examine my ankle.  I passed the physical – they cut the cast off, the doctor checked me out, and they put another cast back on.  Shortly after that, the Kings drew up a contract and I decided to play in the NBA.  My only concern at that point was being introduced at the press conference.  I wanted to walk in without limping, so I rehabbed the ankle around the clock [laughs].

 

You were selected sixth overall by the Kansas City Kings, in the 1974 NBA Draft.  That same year, you were also drafted by Memphis of the American Basketball Association.  Did you ever consider signing with Memphis?

I considered Memphis.  My heart was in the NBA – it was the established league, and I wanted to play against the best competition – but I wanted to look at all of the possibilities.

 

Your first season in Kansas City was a success.  The Kings won 44 games, finishing three games out of first place.  You averaged 11 points-per-game and was named to the NBA All-Rookie team.  What was it like to play NBA ball?

I didn’t really have to make any adjustments as far as my game was concerned.  It was more of a mental challenge.  Those first few games I didn’t play much, and I was despondent because of that.  It bothered me to sit on the bench and not contribute.  I was young, and I didn’t realize the importance of playing a role on a team, especially if that role involved a lot of sitting [laughs].  Eventually I began to understand what was expected of me.  I kept working hard in practice.  I kept myself ready.  It paid off, because I got my opportunity in a game against the Houston Rockets.  [Kings head coach] Phil Johnson put me in and I was doing anything to help the team win.  I had blood on both knees from diving for loose balls.  After the game he singled me out, and said that he wished he had more guys playing defense the way I played it that night.

After getting playing time, the biggest adjustment was probably on defense.  Back then there were plenty of talented forwards to contend with on a nightly basis – guys like Rick Barry, Bingo Smith, Sydney Wicks, Chet Walker and Curtis Rowe.  You had to be prepared to play solid defense every time you stepped onto the court against those guys.

 

Tiny Archibald was your teammate during your first two seasons in Kansas City.

Tiny was very quiet.  He didn’t communicate a lot back then, and I was somewhat quiet as well.  So neither of us really said a whole lot during my rookie year.

 

What kind of player was he?

Tiny was a great basketball player.  His speed and quickness was right there for everyone to see.  He was a 6’-1” left-handed guard with explosiveness, and yet he made everything look almost effortless.  He had the nickname “Nate the Skate” because he looked so smooth dribbling the basketball.  I quickly learned where to be when he had the ball, because if you were open the pass was coming.  It didn’t matter if it were baseline or perimeter; he drew so much attention that could penetrate and then kick the ball out for an open shot.

 

In January, 1980, you had a career night against Utah.  You scored 45 points on 19-of-31 shooting, many of which came against NBA star Adrian Dantley.  You also had 12 rebounds and seven assists in that game.

That night I didn’t think I could miss – obviously I did miss, but every shot felt good when it left my hands.  It’s hard to describe.  I was in a pretty good groove that season.  I remember going back to Utah later that year and hitting my first seven field goals.  I was so hot that night that I took shots that I normally wouldn’t have taken.  But that’s the way it works when you feel it.  Over the course of my career I had four or five games where I didn’t miss a shot.  I just got going good and didn’t let up.  The superstars – the Larry Birds of the world – are able to step onto the court and recreate those moments almost at will.

 

You helped the Kings reach the Western Conference finals in 1981, battling Moses Malone and the Houston Rockets.

We didn’t shoot as well as we should have in that series.  As a team, our percentage was down from our season average.  We beat the Portland Trail Blazers and the Phoenix Suns to reach the Conference Finals, and we felt good about our chances against the Rockets.  But Phil Ford and Otis Birdsong got hurt, and that forced us to change our rotation.  Ernie Grunfeld had to play more forward than he was used to, and I was also out of position a bit.  As a team, we were out of our flow.  The Rockets had Moses, Calvin Murphy, Robert Reid, Rudy Tomjanovich and Mike Dunleavy.  Quality guys.  So they were a very good team.  It was a great disappointment to lose, because I’ve always felt that we matched up better with the Celtics that year.  The Rockets fell 4-2 in the 1981 NBA Finals.  I’ve always wondered how we would have done against Larry Bird, Kevin [McHale] and Robert [Parish].

 

Kings ownership broke up the team following the loss to the Rockets, and you signed a free agent contract with the Cleveland Cavaliers.

To be honest, I expected to stay in Kansas City my entire career.  It felt good – I knew the offense, the system, and everything about the situation just fit.  But ownership wasn’t looking to spend, and Cleveland was aggressive.  From a basketball standpoint it may not have been the best fit for me, but that was an unknown at the time.  When I got there I quickly realized how much was different.

 

You arrived in Boston following a mid-season trade between the Celtics and the Cleveland Cavaliers.

I vividly remember the day that I was traded – it was January 16th, 1981.  Ironically, my first game as a Boston Celtic was against the Cavaliers in Cleveland.  I remember how strange it felt to dress in the road locker room.  Back then the players carried their own shoes and uniforms.  I had my road uniform and a pair of white basketball shoes with me, which posed something of a problem.  The Celtics either played in black or green basketball shoes.  So I had to paint my shoes green for the game [laughs].

I remember going out on the court for warm-ups – running the drills and shooting the ball – and I don’t think I missed a shot.  I felt really good – I was excited to be a part of Boston Celtics, and to be playing with such a talented group of players.  And then the reality of the situation set in; I didn’t get into the game, and I quickly learned that I was going to spend a lot of time sitting behind Bird.  It was very disappointing.  But by the end of that game I understood how close-knit that team was, and that it was going to take some time to figure out where I fit.

 

How quickly were you accepted by your new teammates?

The guys didn’t exactly welcome me with open arms, but I can understand their point-of-view; no one wants to see his minutes go down, and suddenly another player is thrown into the mix.  After the Cleveland game I doubted whether Boston was the ideal situation for me.  Confidence-wise, it was a very tough three-or-four month period because [Bill] Fitch had a set rotation.  Cedric Maxwell was a starter, and McHale was the sixth man.  Danny Ainge was slotted behind Gerald Henderson in the backcourt.  Looking back, I think my biggest contributions those first few months came in the practices.  I think I was brought in to push Larry in practice, to help keep him focused and motivated.  Larry was very hard on me – he was always testing me, and challenging me the whole way.  He’d talk so much trash.  He’d try to show me up.  It was a very difficult adjustment to make, because I wasn’t used to that type of environment.

 

For a team used to winning championships, your first season in a Celtic uniform was a disappointment.

The team played well after the trade, but Larry ended up getting hurt and we were swept out of the playoffs by Milwaukee.

 

Larry Bird was famous for working on his game during the summer.  What wrinkles did yo work on?

I used the summer to regroup.  I worked with a personal trainer to improve my strength and conditioning, and when training camp opened I went right at Larry.  He’d dish it out, and I’d give it right back.  I wanted to prove that I belonged, and that I could fit into a productive role on the team.  I became a contributor.  I felt I was a key piece of the puzzle.  At the same time, Larry began his run as the league’s Most Valuable Player.  He was the MVP from 1984 to 1986, and I like to think I had a little to do with that.  We had some great battles in practice.

 

Following that sweep by the Bucks, Red Auerbach fired Bill Fitch and replaced him with KC Jones.

KC was the assistant coach when I arrived from Cleveland.  He was a quiet, soft-spoken man, but he was also very humorous.  As an assistant, you knew you had a friend you could trust and lean on.  He could be a great buffer.  To be a successful NBA coach, you have to possess a certain degree of honesty, loyalty and integrity.  KC had those qualities.  KC was the perfect person for the head coaching job – we were a veteran team, so the X’s and O’s weren’t the most important factors for us.  We needed someone who would let us go out there and play.  It was a great move.

 

Auerbach also acquired Dennis Johnson in a trade with Phoenix.  Tell me about Dennis.

Dennis was very unusual.  He was so casual and relaxed, and was always having fun.  He was a true junkyard dog in many respects, a player who would do whatever the situation called for, and someone who  always rose to the occasion.  And he was such a great defensive player.  He drew the tough assignments, always did great work defensively, and then was so dangerous on the other end of the court.

 

DJ came to Boston with a reputation.

There were some questions about Dennis when the trade was made.  There had been reports of run-ins with coaches in Seattle and Phoenix, and speculation that his personality was going to make him a problem.  We welcomed him with open arms.  He had a clean slate in Boston, and we were all determined to form our own opinions about Dennis Johnson.  Larry and Dennis bonded almost immediately.  There was a great deal of mutual respect between them.  Three or four games into the exhibition season Larry made his famous statement to the press, saying that DJ was the best basketball player he’d ever played with.  It was a great move by Larry, who was a master communicator and one of the best at working the press.  He paid a great amount of respect to DJ, and DJ responded by fitting in perfectly.  Larry was sincere when he made that comment, because he was never one to offer compliments easily.  He quickly saw qualities in DJ that he liked, and he made no secret of his feelings.

 

The Celtics beat the Lakers for the 1984 NBA Championship.  What was that like for you?

Greatest feeling in the world.  It was the culmination of everything that I’d worked for as a basketball player.  That series was the biggest thing in the sporting world that year – everybody was talking about Bird playing against Magic in the Finals before the season even started.  The hype was incredible.  There were so many reporters covering that series, and there were so many storylines.  Iconic franchises.  Bird versus Magic.  The Big Three.  Kareem and Worthy.  To be a part of that chapter of Celtics history is hard to describe.

 

The 1985 NBA Finals featured a rematch with the Lakers.  The Celtics won Game 1 on Memorial Day, 148-114, and you were a perfect 11-for-11 from the floor including four three-pointers.

As a professional basketball player, your performance on the court is partly a reflection of where you are emotionally and spiritually.  It’s also directly impacted by your relationship with family and friends.  All of those things were very positive for me when we played the Lakers that day.  I was in a really good place mentally.  I had good friends around me, and all of the elements were right for a strong performance.  I remember that Ainge had a great game, and that I was mentally focused to come off of the bench.  If I’d learned anything from the previous season, it was that I needed to be prepared to contribute when my number was called.  I’d learned to cheer the team when I wasn’t playing, and to keep myself in a very positive frame of mind.  And that day there were no negative thoughts at all.  My first shot didn’t feel good when I released it, but it went in and I knew immediately that I was going to have a good game.

 

The Lakers bounced back in Game 2, and ultimately won the championship.

It was extremely disappointing.  We wanted to be the first team since the ’69 Celtics to repeat as champions.  Kareem was suffering from migraines in the first game, but he bounce back and had a great series.  The Lakers were an excellent team, very talented.  They scored a lot of fast-break points in that series, and Kareem really took it to us.

 

The Celtics made a major trade for Bill Walton following the loss to the Lakers.

We were really disappointed to lose Cedric Maxwell.  He was quite a player, and he had a great personality.  He’d limped through the season with a knee injury, which was tough, and then Red decided to make the trade with the Clippers.  Bill was like a kid in a candy store.  He was thrilled to be a Boston Celtic, thrilled to be playing with Larry Bird, but also aware of how he might be perceived by his teammates – especially Robert Parish.  So one of the first things he did was to call Robert, and to assure him that he was still the starter.  It was a smart move, because it made Robert very receptive to the trade.

 

What was it like having Bill join you on the second unit?

Bill made our practice team much, much better.  Those practices were so intense.  Everyone talked trash.  There was a lot of pride at stake.  And it made the team better – we were 40-1 at home that season, and a lot of that had to do with the nature of our practices.  They were as competitive as many of the games we played that season, because everyone wanted to perform at a high level.  The Big Three set the tone, but the practice team always wanted to take it to them.  And we won our fair share of games [laughs].

 

The 1985-86 Boston Celtics won 67 games on its way to the NBA championship.  Where do you think it ranks in terms of the best teams ever?

I don’t know.  When you look at all of the great players on our team, you have to look at McHale and ask yourself who would have to guard him.  You might find someone to match up with Robert or Larry to some degree, but then who would take care of Kevin?  He was such an incredible low-post player – how many teams would have someone capable of stopping him?  And our bench strength was so great that year that we had depth at all positions.  Jerry Sichting could come in for Ainge and bring incredible shooting accuracy.  Bill brought that trademark intensity, not to mention great passing in the low-post.  I felt I could shoot the ball and defend.  It was a great team, but it’s so hard to compare teams from different eras.  I still like our chances against any team in NBA history.

 

How did the death of Lenny Bias alter the state of the franchise?
Lenny was going to be an impact player for twelve to fifteen years.  I saw him play while he was at the University of Maryland, but I never had the opportunity to play against him.  It was devastating to the Celtics, because he was going to be the team’s future.  A player of that caliber was also going to extend Larry’s career, so it was tremendous blow to the organization.

 

You are close friends with Larry Bird.  Please tell me a little about your former teammate, perhaps a side that the public doesn’t see all that often.

I can tell you a story about him that not many people know.  I liked to run after practice, and Larry used to give me a hard time about it.  But then one day I saw Larry running around the court after we’d finished up our drills, and the next thing you know it had become a part of his routine.  Well, I had an aerobic instructor named Louise Bollen who also happened to be a marathoner.  She was going to run in a charity 10K that spring, and it fell during a break in our playing schedule.  She wanted me to run it with her, so I asked Larry if he wanted to join us.  Larry talked to K.C. about it, who was a little concerned that we might pull a hamstring and spend some time on injured reserve.  But he was somehow able to get K.C.’s blessing to let us run.  The race started in front of the Boston Garden.  It was a beautiful day, and I was surprised to see so many people show up for a 10K.  At that point I realized that we’re in a legitimate race.

We started out in the middle of the pack, with Louise setting a comfortable pace.  Most of the people were very respectful.  They would offer a kind word or wave as they passed us.  But as the race went on, we heard more than one person say “Hey, I’m passing Larry Bird!”, and I could tell that it was starting to bother Larry.  Finally, we’re one mile away from the finish line.  It’s downhill.  Larry said, “That’s it, nobody else is passing me.”  And off he went, hitting that last mile in a dead sprint.  For me, it was a chance to see the heart of a champion in an arena other than basketball.   I was able to fully experience Larry’s drive, and his will to win.  It was an incredible sight – although I’m not sure that K.C. would have been happy with Larry going all-out like that [laughs].

 

Kevin McHale was known as a big practical joker.  Were you ever on the receiving end of his pranks?

I only drank bottled water, and Kevin claims that he poured it out on many occasions and replaced it with tap water.  He teased me about it many times back then, and still sticks to his story.

 

You were a two-time NBA All-Star.  Looking back, how does it feel to be recognized in such a way?

It was an honor to be recognized in that way, but I’m more proud of my selection to the All-Defensive second team.  Because of injury I was only able to play in one All-Star game, but it was a very rewarding experience.

 

Final Question:  If you could offer one piece of advice on life to others, what would that be?

Follow your heart.  It’s the surest way to realize true happiness in life.