By: Michael D. McClellan |  When Mel Counts joined the Boston Celtics as a rookie in the fall of 1964, he did so with the knowledge that he would probably never earn a starting position, and that his name might forever be a footnote to one of the greatest dynasties in the history of team sport. Standing in line behind Bill Russell can do that to you. Counts, drafted ninth overall in the first round of the 1964 NBA Draft, just ahead of future stars Willis Reed and Paul Silas, found his two-year stay in Boston to be both a blessing and a curse. One the one hand, he was a member of a Celtic team that won eleven championships in thirteen seasons, a feat unmatched and still regarded as the gold standard for the four major North American sports. On the other, Counts simply never got to play.  To many NBA fans, Counts remained a mystery, a lithe seven-footer who could seldom flaunt the talent that made him a two-time All-America selection at Oregon State University. The legendary Red Auerbach ultimately used this to his advantage, shrouding Counts in so much secrecy that he could pry rugged forward Bailey Howell away from Baltimore in an even-up trade. Bailey, of course, was an integral component on two Celtic championship teams, while Counts would go on to a fine, 12-year career with six different NBA franchises, including two stints with the Los Angeles Lakers. That he would end up becoming on the league’s first true journeymen is of little consequence. Counts, for all of his stops and travels, entered the NBA as Boston’s green giant, and to this day he remains proud of his time spent in a Celtic uniform.

“I’ve been blessed,” Counts says, when asked about his bit-part in the Celtics’ dynasty. “How many people can say that they’ve played with guys like Bill Russell, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsohn, KC Jones and Satch Sanders? How many can say that they’ve played on one of the greatest teams of all time?”

Born on October 16th, 1941, in Coos Bay, Oregon, Counts found himself drawn to the outdoors well before he developed a love for basketball. Situated in Oregon’s Bay Area, and with the largest natural harbor between Seattle and San Francisco, Coos Bay offers hunting and fishing in equal abundance, and a young rarely missed an opportunity to indulge in his favorite pastimes. He also enjoyed hiking with his father, whom he idolized, and who taught him how to appreciate nature. In fact, Oregon’s picturesque outdoors was so all-consuming that Counts didn’t pick up a basketball until fourth grade – but when he finally did, he took to the sport quickly and dramatically, displaying a natural athleticism that clearly set him apart from other children his age.

The next several years would provide a solid foundation for Counts, as his coaches drilled into him the importance of basketball fundamentals. They eschewed the fancy stuff, opting instead for clean, crisp passes, solid defense, and high-percentage shots. Counts listened and learned, developing into the most accomplished cager in the history of Marshfield High School. By then his height rivaled his prodigious basketball talent, making him so dominant in the low-post that college recruiters with no working knowledge of Oregon’s geography suddenly knew of Coos Bay and the area’s thriving lumber industry. Naturally, offers poured in. With no shortage of universities at his beck and call, Counts elected to play collegiate hoops for Oregon State and its legendary, hall-of-fame coach, Slats Gill. Gill, who had taken the 1949 Oregon State team to the Final Four, would do so again in 1963 with Counts as the centerpiece of the Beaver attack. And Counts, then a junior, would earn All-America honors for his efforts, a feat that he would repeat following his senior season.

There was little doubt that Counts would play professionally, but his date with the Boston Celtics would have to wait, as Oregon’s favorite son was selected to represent the United States in the 1964 Olympic Games in Tokyo, Japan. Playing for another legendary coach, Hank Iba, Counts and his teammates shrugged off the underdog tag to finish 9-0, including a dominating 73-59 gold medal win over the previously undefeated Soviet Union.

“I don’t remember a lot about the ebb and flow of the gold medal game,” Counts wrote years later.  “I remember that the Soviets had a guy on their team named Jan Kruminsh. He was 7’6″ and weighed 320 pounds. They actually recruited him from the Siberian forest. I don’t think he had to saw the trees down, he could just tear them out by the roots and load them on the trucks by hand. He was huge. And he wasn’t even their starting center. The guy who was their starting center was “only” 6’11.

“At that time, we were just starting to send American coaches and players to foreign countries. These other counties hadn’t caught on to how we played the game here in America. The Soviets, like a lot of teams from other countries, were a lot more mechanical, less creative and freelancing, than we as Americans were. That really hurt their game. We were clearly better than them at the point.

“We ended up winning the game, and the most vivid memory I have is stepping up on the podium with a gold medal draped around my neck.  What a great feeling.  I was kind of awestruck, like, ‘Hey, this is what it looks like. This is for real. I’m here!’  The rest of the team felt the same way, like, ‘We came here to get the job done, we did it, and it was exciting.’”

Drafted ninth overall by the Boston Celtics, Counts continued his tutelage under another coaching luminary, Arnold “Red” Auerbach.  It was at that first training camp that Counts would experience Auerbach’s military-style approach to conditioning, an approach that, along with superior talent, would help propel the Celtics to 11 championships in thirteen seasons.  Counts, for his part, would average 4.8 ppg and 4.9 rpg in mostly mop-up duty, with his primary contributions coming against Russell during the team’s rugged practices.  The Celtics won sixty-two games that season, then a club record, culminating with a 4-1 NBA Finals win over the Los Angeles Lakers – and Boston’s seventh consecutive NBA championship.

While the rookie may not have seen the court much during the regular season, and even less of it during the playoffs, Counts nonetheless was blessed to be present for perhaps the single biggest moment in franchise history.  Immortalized by radio announcer Johnny Most’s signature ‘Havlicek stole the ball!’ call during Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals, John Havlicek’s famous theft only seems to grow bigger through the years – and Counts had the good fortune to be courtside for history in the making.

Counts would win another title a year later, his second with the team, as the Celtics would conclude their  record string of eight consecutive championships.  Statistically, the player known as ‘Goose’ would improve in almost every important category – games played (67, versus 57 the year before), minutes played (1021 versus 572), points-per-game (8.4 versus 4.8), rebounds-per-game (6.4 versus 4.9), and field goal percentage (.403 versus .368).  His playing days as a Celtic, however, were all but done; Auerbach’s retirement as coach meant a full-time gig as the team’s general manager, and one of his first offseason moves was to appoint Russell as his successor.  The first African-American head coach in any of the three major sports, Russell had no intentions of slowing down.  As player/coach, he was determined to log the same heavy workload that he had in the past.  For Counts, that would mean another season’s worth of garbage-time minutes, something that he was ready to accept in order to win another championship.  Auerbach had other ideas; convinced that the team needed more depth at power forward, as well as more size underneath the boards, he traded Counts to Baltimore in exchange for All-Star Bailey Howell.  He then acquired Wayne Embry to fill Counts’ spot as a backup to Russell.  The Celtics would win two of the next three championships, sending Russell off a winner.

Counts’ stay in Baltimore was abbreviated; he played 25 games during the 1966-67 NBA season before being shipped to the Lakers in a trade.  Counts fit in perfectly with the likes of Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, and Jerry West.  With Baylor and Chamberlain down in the paint, Counts was free to play away from the basket and use his great outside touch.  He averaged a career-best 12.6 ppg in 1969-70.  The Lakers went to three NBA Finals in those four seasons.  Ironically, he found himself squarely on the other side of the heated Celtic-Laker rivalry, learning firsthand what it was like to lose to the great Bill Russell.

Counts went to the Phoenix Suns in 1970, and had one solid season (11 ppg, 6.3 rpg).  Then he had one bad season, and soon he found himself bouncing around the league.  Counts went to the Philadelphia 76ers, returned to L.A., and then finished his career with the New Orleans Jazz before retiring after the 1975-76 season. In all, he played in 789 regular season and 85 playoff games.  Still, he thinks of himself as Boston’s green giant, the player who arrived at a place and time that was truly special, where legendary men performed in an historic venue, where the fiery coach chomped victory cigars in the waning moments of games big and small, and where anything less than a championship was considered a season wasted.

Since retirement, Counts has received numerous accolades and awards, including enshrinement into the PAC-10 Hall of Honor, the US Olympic Hall of Fame, the OSU Hall of Fame, and the State of Oregon Sports Hall of Fame.  Celtic Nation is honored to bring you this interview.

You were born on October 16th, 1941, in Coos Bay, Oregon.  Please share some of the memories from your childhood, and also some of the events in your life that led you to the basketball court.

Growing up in a small town of about 300-to-400 people was a real advantage and positive for me.  I had the opportunity to hunt and fish, and go to a small school.  I think one of the best coaches I ever had was my fourth, fifth and six grade coach.  Just him being a mentor and a teacher of the basic fundamentals, not to mention his general enthusiasm and his involvement with kids, really set the stage for the rest of my life.

There are so many childhood memories that stand out.  We lived about three miles from Coos Bay.  In grade school, we used to hitchhike to town to go to the movies.  Back then the movie houses were a little different – you had all of the previews, you had the news, you had two serials, you had two cartoons, and you had a double-feature, all of this for the price of one ticket.  The average movie house cost sixteen cents for a ticket, and the uptown movie house cost a quarter.  Either way, it was dark outside by the time you got out.  I remember one time when my friend and I were hitchhiking back to the little town that I lived in, and we’re about a mile or so away when this car stopped for us, and we got in.  We drove along for a couple of blocks before the two guys in the front seat stopped the car and asked what we were doing in the car.  Well, what happened was that they’d stopped at a stop sign and we’d just walked over and gotten in [laughs].  They ended up giving us a ride all the way home anyway [laughs].

I have fond memories of growing up around Coos Bay.  I have a lifetime friend that I still hunt and fish with, this after about fifty-five years of knowing each other.  I remember the area being boom or bust, because the two primary sources of revenue were the fishing and lumber industries.  People would be down and out when the longshoremen were on strike, and other times thing would be going lickety-split.  There were a lot of economic cycles, no doubt about it.  At one time the area was the number one exporter of lumber in the world.  Of course it’s no longer that way now.

I remember, too, that you didn’t have to worry about your topside getting wet during a rain – it was always your bottom, because when the rain came at you, it came at you sideways from the wind blowing it.  So that umbrella didn’t do you a lot of good [laughs].

You are the most accomplished basketball player in the history of Marshfield High School.  Please tell me a little about this period in your life.

I think my work ethic was the reason I was so successful – it was instilled in me at a very early age by my mom.  She always talked about things like that.  And the great coaches that I had in junior high and high school also made a big difference.  Their influence helped shaped me into a better basketball player, and also a better person.  There really is no substitute for work ethic and for trying to do what’s right.

You graduated from high school in 1960, and then signed to play collegiate basketball at Oregon State University.  As a junior, you led the Beavers to the Final Four.  Please tell me about this experience.

I got to play for Slats Gill.  To me, he was one of the greatest college coaches of all time  He was assisted by Paul Valenti, another great coach.  I think nine of the thirteen players on that Final Four team were from Oregon.  One of them was Terry Baker, who had won the Heisman Trophy and was also Sports Illustrated’s Sportsman of the Year.  Steve Pauly was a decathlon champion.  We had people who played dual sports – two or three of the guys were also baseball players – which I don’t think that they do quite so much anymore.

The experiences that I gained from playing for Slats was worth so much more than just basketball.  He was very similar to my earlier coaches, in that he helped mold me into a better person and prepare for things that would come later in life.  In fact, some of the best times of my life were spent in college, at Oregon State, having that college experience – not only as an athlete, but as a student.  It was a great place to grow, and to meet other people – and not only from other parts of the country, but from other parts of the world.  It was a wonderful experience.

As for reaching the Final Four, that was only the second time in school history that Oregon State had done that.  Slats guided the 1949 team to the Final Four as well, so that tells you a little about his coaching ability.  We didn’t have as good a record as some of the teams in past years, but we had a real cohesive group.  And when they talk about peaking at the right time, towards the end of the year, that’s what we did.  We were ready for the tournament.  We won some games when we had to and reached the Final Four where Cincinnati beat us.  We played Duke in the consolation game and we lost that game as well – back then you played two games if you reached the Final Four, which they don’t do now – but it was just a wonderful experience.  Just to represent Oregon, OSU and the community was quite a privilege, and quite an honor.  Of course, the idea is to go all the way and win it, but it just didn’t happen.  The other teams were better than we were.  They deserve all of the credit for a job well done.

You were a two-time All-America selection.  How did it feel to be recognized as one of the greatest players in the country?

Well again, it was an honor to be recognized in that way, and I attribute a lot of that to a number of factors; the upbringing that I had, the coaching, the work ethic, and so on.  I looked at it as a collective thing, a team thing, with a lot of people helping along the way.  Yeah, you’d have to do a lot of it on your own, but I think a lot of times, as individuals playing a team sport, there end up being a lot of other people involved in your success.  For me, part of it was the coaches that I had – from grade school, into junior high and high school, and then on into college – they all had an impact, and they all played an important part in helping to make me successful.

The 1964 Olympic Games were held in Tokyo.  As hard as it may be to fathom, the U.S. men’s basketball team was considered something of an underdog going in.  What was it like to represent your country, and what memories stand out in your mind after all of these years?

The writers wrote us off.  They said that we weren’t going to get the job done.  Unlike the 1960 team, we didn’t have guys like Jerry West, or Oscar Robertson, or Jerry Lucas, or Walt Bellamy, or Terry Dischinger, or Bob Boozer.  These guys went on to play pro ball, with three or four of them becoming superstars in the NBA.  We didn’t have anybody on our team like that.  But we did have a great coach in Hank Iba, and a great group of assistant coaches.

We went to Pearl Harbor and worked out for three weeks.  We worked out twice a day, for three hours a pop, and when it came game time we were ready.  I remember one time, we had a game in the morning, and then we had practice that afternoon to get ready for the next day.  We were extremely well-prepared and extremely well-conditioned.  I don’t know if you’ve ever been over to Hawaii in the middle of the summer, or know the humidity factor, but it really helps to prepare you for the challenges and pressures of representing your country in Olympic competition – not only physically, but mentally and emotionally.

We went in with confidence, tradition, and the idea that the sports writers had written us off – there’s no doubt that that got in our crawl.  We wanted to show them.  That was an extremely powerful source of motivation for our team.  Our goal was to represent our country to the best of our ability, and that’s exactly what we did.  We won the gold medal and proved everybody wrong.

The Boston Celtics selected you in the first round of the 1964 NBA Draft, the ninth player chosen overall.  Please take me back to that first training camp with the Celtics.

It was like hell [laughs].  It was like boot camp.  The first three days we didn’t shoot the basketball.  In fact, back then they didn’t know as much about nutrition as they know now, and about how the body recovers from exercise.  And truthfully, the way we did things back then really wasn’t the best way to do it.  They’ve learned a lot since then.  Back then we’d go full-bore from ten until twelve, and then from two until four, with hardly a drink of water.  There wouldn’t be any breaks.  Now they practice in the morning and in the evening, which makes more sense.  It gives the body more time to recover.

The first three days, all we’d do was run and do drills.  We didn’t do any shooting.  It was total exercise.  But the fact that they ran so much in training camp certainly gave the Celtics an edge, and I think that’s why they always got off to a fast start.  Having Bill Russell, the greatest defensive player in the history of the game, didn’t hurt, either [laughs].  It all played into Red’s up-tempo offense, which was predicated on the fast break.  But those training camps were quite an experience.  They were tough.

Red Auerbach was notorious for those preseason barnstorming tours that took the team all over New England.  Were you ever a part of these tours and, if so, do you have a fond memory or an amusing story to share?

I broke my wrist my during training camp during my first season, so I missed those, and then the next season was when the player’s union really gained momentum and the number of preseason games were pared way down.  But they used to play anywhere from sixteen to twenty games during the preseason, where now they’re down to maybe six or eight.  So I really don’t have any recollection of what those barnstorming tours were like.

But I do recall other stories about Red.  He was a tremendous tactician, a tremendous psychiatrist, and a tremendous psychologist.  He deserves a lot of credit for treating each player different, which had a lot to do with the team’s exceptional chemistry.  He pioneered the idea of the sixth man, bringing a Frank Ramsey or a John Havlicek off the bench to help ignite the offense.  Red always had the ability to go to other teams and get players who were on the way out and get another year or two out of them – a prime example of that is when he traded me to the Baltimore Bullets for Bailey Howell, who had been an All-Star forward for much of his career.  That was the piece that the Celtics were missing at the time, because I was still young and green, and I still had a lot to learn about the game.  Bailey Howell came in and really helped them – I think he was on two of those championship teams with Russell.  Red was a smart coach and a shrewd judge of talent.

Everyone today knows that NBA players are pulling down multi-million dollar salaries.  What was the pay scale like when you played?

Obviously we weren’t making a lot of money.  I made $12,000 my first season with the team, plus $3,400 for winning the NBA championship.  The next year it was another $12,000, plus $3,600.  It helped, in a way, to keep you humble.  You didn’t forget where you came from.  Looking back, it’s easy to see that players from my generation played primarily for the love of the game, because a lot of them were making more money in the offseason than they were playing basketball.  Some of them were in real estate, or insurance, those types of things.  Of course, back then it didn’t cost as much to live.  Today, NBA wages far outpace inflation.  I’m not knocking these players getting that kind of money, but I don’t care for the ones with the bad attitudes and bad behavior.  When I played, you didn’t have problems with drugs, or players getting into fights with weapons, or players going to jail for any of those types of things.

Walter Brown passed away on September 7th, 1964.  Please tell me a little about Mr. Brown.

I never did meet Walter Brown.  It’s interesting, because I was invited out to meet him in a social setting, and I didn’t take advantage of that.  So when I arrived for training camp, he had already passed away.  From what I’ve heard, Walter Brown was a great human being who loved basketball, and loved the Boston Celtics.  He would do anything for you – if players were short on money, he would loan it to them without a second thought.  I think he was the kind of man who would give you the shirt off his back.

The ’65 playoffs produced one of the most dramatic moments in NBA history, as Johnny Most makes his legendary radio call: “Havlicek stole the ball! Havlicek stole the ball!”  Please take me back to that series in general, and that game in particular.

The guide wire supporting the backboard almost cost us that game against the Sixers.  I remember a conversation between Red Auerbach and Bill Russell prior to that series, and the decision was made to leave the guide wire in place.  Well, it was a really close game and Russell had to inbound the basketball.  Sure enough, he hit that wire and gave the ball back to Philadelphia under their basket.  I thought, ‘Oh no, this is it’, and then Havlicek came out of nowhere to steal the basketball.  He was a smart, smart player.  He grabbed the ball, made the pass, and the rest is history.

The Celtics dismantled the Lakers 4-1 to secure the team’s seventh consecutive title – and eighth overall.  While old hat to players like Bill Russell and Sam Jones, it was a new experience for you.  What was it like win your first NBA championship?

I’d never been on a championship team before.  In high school I was on two second place teams, and in college we made it to the Final Four once, so to be on a championship team like that is very special.  I think at the time it numbs you and you don’t really take it all in, but as time goes on it becomes more meaningful.  Now I can look at my Celtic ring or my Celtic watch, and say ‘Hey, I was on a world championship team’.  I’ve been very blessed and very fortunate to have the opportunity  to play on those teams.

Please tell me about the heart-and-soul of the Celtic Dynasty:  Bill Russell and Sam Jones.

Bill Russell is the greatest team player to ever play the game, and one of the greatest individual players to ever play it as well.  I think he really brought to the forefront the importance of defense in winning.  The guy would not only block shots, but he would try to block them to a teammate, or to himself, which helped initiate that great Celtic fast break.  There have been other great shot blockers, but not with his ability.  Russell was extremely intelligent, one of the smartest players that I’ve ever played with or against.  He was also one of the fastest.  Even back then he was somewhat undersized for a center, but he was probably one of the most mentally tough and mentally prepared players to ever play the game.  He was 6’9” and weighted about 210, and when you go up against guys like Wilt Chamberlain, who was 7’1”, 285, there was quite a bit of difference there.  But Russell always rose to the occasion.  I remember one time, when he was under the basket and we were playing the Lakers, and Archie Clark was at midcourt with the basketball.  And as Archie reached the basket, he decided to go under for a reverse.  It didn’t matter, because Russell had chased him down and was able to block the shot.  I thought, ‘This is unbelievable – Russell’s a half a court away, and he’s still able to catch this guy.’  What made it so special was that Archie knew Russell was coming.  That’s why he went under the basket, to keep Russell from blocking the shot.  Like I said, it didn’t matter.  Even after all of these years, it’s still one of the greatest plays I’ve ever seen.

Don’t get me wrong; Michael Jordan was a great player, one of the greatest ever.  But even today, if I had to choose one player to start a team, it would be Bill Russell.  He epitomized the term ‘team player’.  And just look at the results – thirteen seasons, eleven championships.  There aren’t many other players in any sport that can compare to that.  And the schedule was so grueling – back then there were only nine teams when I started, so the rosters were filled with quality from top-to-bottom.  Today there are more than thirty teams, so the league has been watered down in some respects.  I’m not disparaging the guys playing today, because there are some really great players out there.  But when you have fewer teams, that means more quality players have to step up.  And Russell was able to consistently outshine the best of the best.  He faced great players almost every time he stepped out on the court, and he was always at his best with a championship on the line.

Sam Jones was a tremendous clutch shooter, and one of the greatest bank shooters in the game.  He had deceptive speed – just when you thought he was running his fastest, he would kick it into another gear and just take off.  It was almost like he had another gear, or afterburners [laughs].  His speed and shooting ability were huge components of Red’s fast break attack.  Russell would block the shot, get the ball to the point, and Sam would be sprinting downcourt on the wing, ready to take the shot.

Red Auerbach would bow out the following season with yet another championship, the team’s eighth in a row.  The starting five had an average age of 31 that season, and many experts felt the team was too old to win again.  How were the Celtics able to overcome the age factor and send Red off a winner?

Two words:  Bill Russell [laughs].  You know, I was a member of the Lakers when Los Angeles played Boston during the 1969 NBA Finals.  That was Russell’s last season in the league.  It came down to Game 7 in Los Angeles, and one of the shots that killed us in that game was Don Nelson’s shot that hit the rim, went about ten feet straight up in the air, and then dropped into the basket.  That was a backbreaker, because the Celtics raced out to a huge lead – I think it was eighteen points – before we were able to cut it down to one.  You know, there’s no substitute for tradition, for believing in yourself, for reaching down for that little bit extra – it doesn’t matter what the sport is…basketball, golf, whatever the case may be.  And the Celtics had that.  They had tradition.  They were used to being successful.  They believed in themselves, even when they were down, and that’s how they were able to overcome adversity and win year-after-year.  And it all revolved around Russell.  The Celtics were an average team before he arrived, and they immediately won a championship with him on the team.  He gave the team tremendous confidence.  A swagger.  It carried the team to a bunch of championships.

If my memory is correct, the Celtics finished the 1968-69 regular season in fourth place.  They won a few more games than they lost, but not many – just enough to get into the playoffs.  They were considered old, and everyone was saying that the dynasty was over.  They were used to winning their division, even though they always had those great battles with Philadelphia when Wilt was there.  So the writers were all predicting a quick playoff exit, but Russell played like a great warrior in the playoffs.  He willed them to win in many cases.  That seventh game against us is a prime example.  I think Russell played all forty-eight minutes in that game.  The Celtics, of course, came out on top.

In 1966, you were traded to the Baltimore Bullets in exchange for the versatile Bailey Howell, and from there you were traded to the Los Angeles Lakers.  What was it like to be on the other side of the Celtics-Lakers rivalry?

I thought it was great.  It was a challenge being on the other side, because I had the opportunity to be in a championship situation with the Celtics.  I knew what they were all about.  I thought it would really be special to be duplicate that with the Lakers.  I played the Celtics the only way I knew how – I took pride in what I did, I played hard, and I believed in myself.  I also trusted my teammates and my coaches, knowing that together we could do whatever necessary to be successful and to be a champion.  So I looked at it as just another challenge.

Please tell me about Jerry West.

He was unbelievable.  I remember I was in the game when we were playing New York, and he hit that famous, 65-foot shot to tie the game.  That would have won it now, with the three-pointer.  He was not only one of the greatest clutch shooters, but he was also a great defensive ballplayer.  Quick hands.  I saw Jerry steal the ball from Pistol Pete [Maravich] – picked him clean.  And Pete was one of the best ball handlers in the game.

Jerry was also a smart, smart player.  I’d put him in the category with Bill Russell as far as intelligence goes, and as far as seeing the whole floor, and seeing what he needed to do.  When he played with Wilt and Elgin Baylor, he would do a phenomenal job of distributing the basketball.  As the game got tighter, then he’d start taking his shots.  He believed in himself so much that he never shied away from the big shot.  And on top of everything else, Jerry was just a class guy.

You played alongside two of the greatest players in NBA history – Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain.  What was this like for you?

You’re talking about two of the greatest players to ever suit up in the NBA, so it was an honor to play alongside of them.  They also afforded me the opportunity to play some at the forward position.  It was quite a learning process.  You’re talking about two of the best ever.  As I’ve said, Bill Russell that in 13 seasons won 11 championships. He was the greatest team player the game has ever seen.  And Wilt, well he was arguably the most dominant offensive force of all-time.

Of your time spent with the team, do you have a fond memory or an amusing story that stands out most?

I have a story that stands out, but it’s actually sad rather than amusing.  I remember one time, in the dressing room – and this was when John Thompson was my roommate – and John came into the locker room, and his uniform wasn’t hanging up.  That’s how he found out that he was no longer on the team.  I thought that that was a poor way to communicate with him.  John was such a good person, that I thought the Celtics could have done a better job of handling his release.

I remember another story as well – we would always meet at the end of the season to divide up the playoff money, and I remember John being there.  Woody Sauldsberry, too.  And the team voted to give John and Woody a half of a share, as opposed to a full share, because they really hadn’t played a lot that season.  I think John played 10 games, and Woody had played in about half of the games.  Well, John stood up in the meeting and objected.  He felt that if you were a member of the team, then you were deserving of a full share or none at all.  It was a very impassioned speech on his part, and the team responded to that by giving each of them a full share.  I was really happy with the way it worked out for John and Woody – as I indicated, back then there just wasn’t a lot of money to go around.

One thing you learned very quickly about that team was that they did a lot of things together – gatherings, dinners, that sort of thing.  I don’t think they do that so much anymore.  It used to be that the team would socialize a lot together.  As I went on to other teams, the people that I associated more with were my neighbors.  But in Boston it was much more of a family atmosphere.  But when it came to game time it was serious.

Let’s talk life after basketball.  What have you been up to in the years since retiring from the NBA?

I have been a realtor for twenty-eight years, listing and selling properties, investing in properties, that sort of thing.  I’ve been very involved in the pro-life movement, and I belong to the traditional Catholic Church.  I’m very involved in my community – I’ve been on the school board for eight years, and I’ve been on a hospital board for three.  In the past I’ve given talks to churches, schools and clubs, which is part of giving back for all that I’ve received through the years.  I still fish and hunt quite a bit as well, and I do some biking.  There’s an organization in Oregon called ‘Cycle Oregon’, and there are 2,000 cyclists that take part in this.  I’ve been on four or five rides so far, one of which starts close to the Idaho border and goes all the way to the beach – it’s about a 500 mile ride.  I have five children and thirteen grandchildren, and another on the way, so were pretty involved with the kids and their activities, and the grandkids.  I’ve just been enjoying life and thanking God for all of his blessings.

Final Question:  You’ve achieved great success in your life.  If you could offer one piece of advice on life to others, what would that be?

Have trust and faith in God and his teachings.  Always try to do the right thing and reach out and help others, because there is always someone else out there a little worse off.  Put yourself out there to others instead of always thinking about yourself.